Teach forward stuff to candidates

[Chook 15,012]

6AM Goal-kicking

12PM Lunch

1PM Goal-kicking

6PM Dinner

Repeat as desired or until satisfactory. How hard is that? It is the one area of our game in which the smallest amount of effort will yield the greatest result. A team that was capable of kicking 15 goals straight instead of 10.5 immediately goes from a wooden-spooner to a Final Eight contender on the back of five kicks of the football. If you can think of a way to get more drastic improvement through less than that many kicks per game, I'd like to see it.

[Lost Highway 31]

I also suggested in this very thread- green shoud be FF. Size is handy, but if you have some forward nounce about you it can also hold you in good stead (anyone remember mark williams killing it a few years ago) I, or I don't think anyone is expecting a coleman medalist in Green.. but can anyone not see him being able to get 2-3 (40-60 a year) goals a game? That is definately in the realms of reality!

Greens courage is a factor being overlooked also. I think a man in a focal position ie FF displaying countless acts of courage and bravery (which no AFL follower anywere could deny) could set an extrememly important example for all the young midfielders and fellow forwards around him- Go when it's your turn, no regrets, no hesitation. No retreat. No surrender. In terms of 'out there' thinking, this isn't exactly earth shattering. Surprised it hasn't been done yet to be honest.. it seems on the surface, the most logical thing to do.

Agree with all of this.

Surely Jones and Moloney provide sufficient hard-nut experience in the mid-field; another of this type, and somewhat slower, would be over-kill. Green might look quick on the lead, but that's not leg-speed, it's anticipation and nous. I contend there's no one better in the side at the moment for the FF spot.

[Lost Highway 31]

Martin should be learning the forward role at Casey. It's unfair of posters to write him off when he is being forced to learn with experienced defenders on him as well as delivery as shocking and infrequent as it currently is. Unfortunately Martin playing for Casey is another luxury we can not afford at the moment with the KPF and Ruck stocks in short supply.

He should be 'learning' the forward stuff at Casey, but we can't 'afford' him to be there?

Simple solution to that conundrum, Forge: play him where he has already shown a bit, in defence. Why start teaching a fellow who isn't a natural footballer yet another position when he has barely had time to master the first? You'd have to switch him from punching the ball away or marking from behind, and sweeping behind the play, to marking, sometimes with the flight of the ball at other times in front of the pack, and turning for goal. I don't believe you can teach this to someone unless they have shown some instinct for it.

I don't call this 'writing him off'. I wouldn't be 'writing off' Jamar if I suggested he stay in the ruck, would I? It's a question of being sensible, and waiting for Martin to show something at Casey would be a waste of time.

[rusty_kingswood 0]

You can practise all the goal kicking in the world, but at the end of the day, if you dont have the talent, you wont kick the goals....Thats why I am not playing in the AFL!!!! Or probably any amateur footballer with a dream for that matter. I practised and practised, but to no avail.

B Miller in my opinion, in the last few weeks alone, has come on from last year, so lets just hope that improves. Green is way to valuable in getting the ball down the forward line at the moment. I think thats the priority still at this stage, actually getting into our forward 50.

As someone else has said, we have to make do with what we have at the moment.

Having said all this however, I would love to see the Ox down there.

[DeeVoted 583]

How do you teach someone how to kick? Obviously there are many more elements to it at the elite level- but why do we still have forwards who can't kick accurately? Why does any club have forwards who can't kick accurately for that matter?

-------------------------------------------

Technique and or a mental thing.

Some players will hardly ever miss on the training track.

But in the heat of the moment for whatever reason they will murder the easliest of set shots, others have the knack of

'slotting' goals from anywhere. Some will improve over time... others, you shut your eyes and pray when they line up for goal.Its just a fact of life, Some are proven reliable goal kickers.

[furious d 463]

He should be 'learning' the forward stuff at Casey, but we can't 'afford' him to be there?

Simple solution to that conundrum, Forge: play him where he has already shown a bit, in defence. Why start teaching a fellow who isn't a natural footballer yet another position when he has barely had time to master the first? You'd have to switch him from punching the ball away or marking from behind, and sweeping behind the play, to marking, sometimes with the flight of the ball at other times in front of the pack, and turning for goal. I don't believe you can teach this to someone unless they have shown some instinct for it.

I don't call this 'writing him off'. I wouldn't be 'writing off' Jamar if I suggested he stay in the ruck, would I? It's a question of being sensible, and waiting for Martin to show something at Casey would be a waste of time.

Simple solution if you want 15 defenders, we're not short in that department. If you want a forward we have to persist with someone, but hey why bother teaching any of our players anything. It's all too hard.

Personally I thought it took Neita 2 years to make the transition to forward, but if Martin isn't kicking 5 goals a game from his first game as a forward he's a failure. Bit harsh I reckon.

[Lost Highway 31]

Simple solution if you want 15 defenders, we're not short in that department. If you want a forward we have to persist with someone, but hey why bother teaching any of our players anything. It's all too hard.

Personally I thought it took Neita 2 years to make the transition to forward, but if Martin isn't kicking 5 goals a game from his first game as a forward he's a failure. Bit harsh I reckon.

We could compare Martin's demonstrated abilities as a footballer with Neita's, eh. Martin's been around for a couple of years and looks OK in defence. Neita was looking like a star from day one.

We don't have 15 defenders; have a look at the scores of the opposition in the NAB rounds - not exactly small, bar one match. The defence seems settled, but it's wrong to think of it as 'strong'; just superior to the attack. Frawley is the only potential star there, the others are honest to good players including Martin. Well, maybe Bennell has something extra.

[Summer Blease 0]

You can practise all the goal kicking in the world, but at the end of the day, if you dont have the talent, you wont kick the goals....Thats why I am not playing in the AFL!!!! Or probably any amateur footballer with a dream for that matter. I practised and practised, but to no avail.

B Miller in my opinion, in the last few weeks alone, has come on from last year, so lets just hope that improves. Green is way to valuable in getting the ball down the forward line at the moment. I think thats the priority still at this stage, actually getting into our forward 50.

As someone else has said, we have to make do with what we have at the moment.

Having said all this however, I would love to see the Ox down there.

So i've been lied to all my life!! I was always made to believe that 'practice makes perfect'.. I guess if you don't have a talent for something, you will never attain it so you might as well give up... May I suggest, with all due respect, perhaps your determination wasn't at the right level to succeed. And that's not a knock on you, we are mere mortals with no hope of participating in any kind of elite activity (speaking of myself, presuming i'm speaking on your behalf also), but I would absolutely expect nothing but sheer determination from the profesionals on the park..

If B Miller has come on from last year, like you said, why can't Martin come on? Without knowing Miller, I can garuntee you Martin is smarter. Green is valuable in getting the ball to the forward 50, this is true, but once again, at the end of the day, who is the FF. There is none. The only person in my opinion who may be able to have a crack is Bate, but i'd rather see him around half forward, where he can use his strength to get through those first pesky two defenders, then he can shoot or drop into a pocket for that sexy left of Greens!

When was the last time we scored over 100points? Doesnt happen very often. Don't know for certain if Green FF is the solution, but at the end of the day it's better than any other option we have at this point in time, and hell, we've won 12 from 66... what's the worst that could happen? Another loss? At least we're de-sensitised to them hey!!

[Eth 4]

If he was bigger I'd agree, but a guy his size would drown at FF with the support we can give him.

Just look at Matthew Lloyd and Daniel Bradshaw. They can't be much bigger than Brad Green.

Anyway, who said a full forward has to be two metres tall and weighing 100+ kilos? Put Greeny there for a few games and see how it works out, because nobody else can play full forward besides Mark Jamar, who is our first-choice ruckman now.

[e25 5]

Just look at Matthew Lloyd and Daniel Bradshaw. They can't be much bigger than Brad Green.

Anyway, who said a full forward has to be two metres tall and weighing 100+ kilos? Put Greeny there for a few games and see how it works out, because nobody else can play full forward besides Mark Jamar, who is our first-choice ruckman now.

Brad Green is 184cm & 83kg.

As opposed to Bradshaw who is 190 & 92.

Not sure about Lloyd though.

And Trengove 185 & 85...

[Inner Demon 1]

How is it people have still not got past the idea that there has to be a singular "full forward" in a team??

It's pretty clear with our list right now that we are going to need 4 players to kick 30+ goals each rather than expecting 1-2 players to kick 60+ goals.

Green kicked 26-37 in his first 6 seasons so he would certainly qualify as one who could fit this role.

Bate is another who can step up to the 30+ range having kicked 27 last year.

Aaron Davey is a 30+ goalkicker if given a more attacking role this year, which hopefully the addition of Joel Mac will afford him.

Cam Bruce has had a couple of seasons of 30+

From there we are looking for midfielders like Sylvia, Grimes, etc to push forward for 15 goals each as well as players like Miller, Petterd to step up as contributors who can push towards the 30 goal mark.

Realistically, from our list it won't be until Watts & Jurrah have a couple of seasons under their belt that we can look to a couple of players to be heavy goalscorers over the course of a season.

[Demon trucker 1,800]

Green is still a much needed midfielder for mine. Should, and would no doubt rotate through the forward line this year. But I want to win some games this year, and he will be needed in the midfield if that is to happen. Next year when we have got Scully, Trengove, Grimes and the rest of the young guys some have some much needed experience in them is when we have the luxury of playing Green as a forward.

Martin should be learning the forward role at Casey. It's unfair of posters to write him off when he is being forced to learn with experienced defenders on him as well as delivery as shocking and infrequent as it currently is. Unfortunately Martin playing for Casey is another luxury we can not afford at the moment with the KPF and Ruck stocks in short supply.

There is one player everyone forgets about how about bruce at FF, he has kicked bags in the past

[Summer Blease 0]

How is it people have still not got past the idea that there has to be a singular "full forward" in a team??

I think it's important for someone to assume the role of FF. I understand the way the game is played these days allows for multiple avenues to goal, but I think a team is stronger if it has a permanent in this position. Someone with a reliable mark, nice kick, courage, forward nous and a good football brain will do. This person will take the oppositions best defender. I think this person needs to be placed in this position with views to the long term- as to create some consistency in planning and tactics. Learning plays and allowing your 2nd, 3rd forwards to better understand their role, and then they can all gel as one.

Feel free to shoot me down instantly if it requires it, but I had a quick thought last night. James Strauss... how tall are his parents? I remember reading somewhere that his dad is an absolute tank. How tall could this kid grow? Just had a vision of him FF.. has the kick for it and not necesarily needed back.. Could he be our Hurley minus the assault charges?

[Lost Highway 31]

Feel free to shoot me down instantly if it requires it, but I had a quick thought last night. James Strauss... how tall are his parents? I remember reading somewhere that his dad is an absolute tank. How tall could this kid grow? Just had a vision of him FF.. has the kick for it and not necesarily needed back.. Could he be our Hurley minus the assault charges?

I think I'd prefer to wait until I've actually seen Strauss play a few games.

The previous suggestion for Bruce is not outrageous, but he can't kick like Green and is probably better on a flank.

The thing about Green is that he knows how to play near goals and can mark well against a taller player. He's been probably the best chest mark in the team for several years, behind Robbo (who gave a lesson in how to do it every time he went for one); if he gets in front he's a hard man to shift.

Green isn't the be-all and end-all for FF, but he's probably the best bet at the moment, while waiting for Gawn and possibly Fitzpatrick to develop. I know Gawn is going to be slated for the ruck, but the videos of his play show him to be a very mobile, coordinated bloke who could end up being a Paul Salmon type.

[Tatu 416]

The defence seems settled, but it's wrong to think of it as 'strong'; just superior to the attack. Frawley is the only potential star there, the others are honest to good players including Martin. Well, maybe Bennell has something extra.

I'd classify Jack Grimes as a defender and in the short career he's had, he's shown loads of star potental..

[dee-luded 2,959]

How is it people have still not got past the idea that there has to be a singular "full forward" in a team??

It's pretty clear with our list right now that we are going to need 4 players to kick 30+ goals each rather than expecting 1-2 players to kick 60+ goals.

Green kicked 26-37 in his first 6 seasons so he would certainly qualify as one who could fit this role.

Bate is another who can step up to the 30+ range having kicked 27 last year.

Aaron Davey is a 30+ goalkicker if given a more attacking role this year, which hopefully the addition of Joel Mac will afford him.

Cam Bruce has had a couple of seasons of 30+

From there we are looking for midfielders like Sylvia, Grimes, etc to push forward for 15 goals each as well as players like Miller, Petterd to step up as contributors who can push towards the 30 goal mark.

Realistically, from our list it won't be until Watts & Jurrah have a couple of seasons under their belt that we can look to a couple of players to be heavy goalscorers over the course of a season.

I like the idea of rotating tall forwards at that post who have different playing styles so we can upset the opposition defence & drag their CHB out of position.

Watts @ 196cms + a Morton @ 192cms or a Jurrah as a quick medium tall with the gorilla (Martin/Jamar/Spencer/Gawn) appearing occaisionally. A couple of nippy smalls a their feet would be cool to C.

[Summer Blease 0]

I like the idea of rotating tall forwards at that post who have different playing styles so we can upset the opposition defence & drag their CHB out of position.

Watts @ 196cms + a Morton @ 192cms or a Jurrah as a quick medium tall with the gorilla (Martin/Jamar/Spencer/Gawn) appearing occaisionally. A couple of nippy smalls a their feet would be cool to C.

I have been thinking about our forward line alot lately. It is commonly reported on how our backline is at the very least serviceable, and the midfield looks promising- I have faith that those two areas will take care of themself. The forward line though? Not so settled. Could be said we have no forward line whatsoever barr M Baterson!

Jack Watts, at this stage in his AFL career is nothing more than juicy prospect. To pin all our hopes on him is pre-emptive and foolish. Newton has to get his head right and break whatever shackles are inhibiting him from achieving anything near his VFL game in the big league. Can he do this? Marric- prospect. Wonameari- Looked exciting in a few matches this is true- unfortunately his body isn't allowing him to play. Major worry.

Jurrah and Bate. They are it. At this stage. And I wouldn't really like to see either of those two confined to staying near the square- Jurrah especially. Calls for him to be played FF by some are almost sadening. Why would you want to take away his whole game, which is being a bouncy/leapy freak, to play man on man grunt stuff. I wont have any of it! And neither should the thrill seeking spectator! Bate could be put FF if worse comes to worse, but I like him around FF. At this stage I feel his big strong body is a definate plus for us.

I like the idea that we are experimenting with Martin. I believe the MFC know about their forward line conundrums, and are putting plans B,C, and D in place and it would be negligable for them not to. At this stage we have only 2/6 forward positions filled. 4 remain. In my opinion anyone, unless they currently OWN their position should be thought of as a potential candidate.

One things for sure.. I can't wait for Gawn to get on the park. I believe once he's body is good he will be an instant presence at the very least. Throw him in the forward line and lets see the packs split! By the time Gawn is playing, the Martin experiment may be concluded and we may have the option of putting him back, or if the heavens are truley shining on us and the Martin experiment pays off AND we have a settled backline we could potentially have

our forward future line lies somewhere in here

MILLER/FITZPATRICK WATTS/BATE/GAWN JURRAH/MARTIN/SYLVIA

WONA/MARRIC/JETTA GAWN/WATTS/NEWTON?? DAVEY/TAPSCOTT

Other possibles may be Garland, Rivers, who knows, but at this stage I believe anyone should be considered, once again barring the players who have NAILED their position, and obviously, the ones that we have earmarked as midfielders. Do players get drafted as forwards per say, or do they get drafted with positions they play now more a secondary thought, and their potential to kick bags the main thought? Basically do recruiters go out looking for the best player available barr position, in the hope that they can be moulded into whatever the club wants?

Edited March 22, 2010 by nostradeemus

[Summer Blease 0]

tried to put spaces in forward line structure. failed, could someone with tech savy fix please, and also eradicate this request?

cheers

[Tatu 416]

Is Paul Johnson finished? seems to getting over looked quite abit.

I didn't mind some of his games in 2008.

Is there any chance he can fill this hole?

[Inner Demon 1]

PJ is injured.

Should be back at Casey in a couple of weeks.

[Lost Highway 31]

Jurrah and Bate. They are it. At this stage. And I wouldn't really like to see either of those two confined to staying near the square- Jurrah especially. Calls for him to be played FF by some are almost sadening. Why would you want to take away his whole game, which is being a bouncy/leapy freak, to play man on man grunt stuff. I wont have any of it! And neither should the thrill seeking spectator!

I absolutely agree with this. Jurrah should be played on the HFF. He has the pace to play small and the leap to play tall. He'll be crushed at FF or the pocket.

One things for sure.. I can't wait for Gawn to get on the park. I believe once he's body is good he will be an instant presence at the very least. Throw him in the forward line and lets see the packs split! By the time Gawn is playing, the Martin experiment may be concluded and we may have the option of putting him back, or if the heavens are truley shining on us and the Martin experiment pays off AND we have a settled backline we could potentially have

Also well said. Gawn, in the videos, looked very mobile and coordinated. He could be a ruck, but he could also be a Paul Salmon type of FF. I doubt very much that the Martin experiment will bear fruit. He's not natural enough a footballer to play in the forward line. I have memories of Sean Wight, who was tried in attack but made a very good defender. Fitzpatrick is an absolute stick insect and we'll have no idea of his capabilities for a season or more.

So, until Watts, Tapscott and Gawn develop and Jurrah comes back to play further out, the best we can offer in attack for a couple of months, reliable players of real ability, are Bate, Sylvia, Petterd, Davey and Green. None are tall. Miller's a pinch-hitter and Newton's a fabulous dud. Maric, Jetta and Wona, even Dunn, are speculative - they might make it, they might come back from injury, they might surprise, but they're on the fringe at this stage. Garland and Rivers might be interesting options more likely to succeed than Martin, but again, neither is really TALL. Rivers at least can 'play tall' and is a good mover. The club could do worse than experiment with him at CHF, leaving Chip, Warnock and Martin as talls in defence.