I thinkt he only way to get gun players will be by having picks in the first 15 of the draft, or some lucky drafting later on. Therefore I thinkwe should be trying to trade for top 15 picks. I could see Green and Bruce playing a role up forward and in the middle for Carlton. Their first pick (10ish) for those two perhaps. I also think Jones, McLean and Moloney are similar players and there won't be enough spots for all three in the future so Jones could be used to upgrade pick 15. Rivers may also want to go back to South Australia for him, but I wouldn't be giving him up too easily. All hypothetical, but I was interested in getting an opinion on these trades

Brad Green's probably our best player...The leadership and experience of Green and Bruce is important for our developing list. You can't trade away all your experienced players if you want your list to progress.

I agree that Jones, McLean and Moloney will probably not all fit into our best midfield setup in 2 to 3 years time. Id' like to keep McLean for now though. Give him a full pre-season, and i think you'll see a much better player. Moloney is a really good leader, so we need him for the younger players to set the example. Jones played well on the weekend, and may well be an improver with an injection of some class (Scully, Blease, Strauss, etc..) where he will get under the radar more.

Rivers has been too injury prone to warrant a high pick. We won't get any value for him. If we trade him for a 2nd round pick to Port for example, and he plays some really solid football & stays injury free, we'll look pretty stupid. He's got the ability, he just needs to get some continuity in playing games and in completing some pre-seasons...

I don't like the idea of trading for 1st round picks this year, because there's probably about 8 players who we can't touch due to the GC situation, so no real value for 1st round picks...

3 picks inside the top 20 is a good deal for us anyway...

I stand by my view that we should only be looking at bringing in players who can help us win a flag. If folks like you, graz and old think he can do that, well great.

I'm definitely not suggesting he's #1 flag ruckman. I'm a fan of a robust clearance creating/clearance winning/hard tackling ruckman like ... gulp ... Jamar, but I think you can only afford one in the 22. Spencer may develop into another of this type.

I am suggesting Hale as a tall marking forward target who complements Watts and Jurrah. He has shown he can kick goals and will require defensive attention - to some extent it's about the threat. This will free up Watts and Jurrah. Also I think a mature tall now will help accelerate their development by taking some focus - assuming Robbo is gone the alternatives right now appear to be Miller and Newton who have their limitations. In turn ultimately Hale wont get the best defender, they'll go to Watts and Jurrah, and he can be a more effective player than he is now. He took a really heavy knock early this year against Hawthorn and was stretchered off - this may have affected his performance this year.

The other half of the equation is he provides is a 2nd ruckman who earns his keep on field and doesn't take up a place on the pine - we can run 4 midfielders off the bench which gives a huge advantage.

It's just a suggestion, there are alternatives, Martin may be able to develop into this role, we've got a few more years up our sleeve before we're challenging and we could do this type of trade in any of the intervening years. Hale will be getting towards the end of his career around 2015-6 when we'll still be challenging (for our 3-peat?) but I'll take the 2014 flag thanks.

I'm definitely not suggesting he's #1 flag ruckman.

Thanks old. You mentioned Martin's name and role late in your post. I do think that the role you foresee for Hale can be filled by Martin. That's not to say that picking Hale in the PSD is a terrible move for Melbourne, but I'd be loathe to trade anything useful (of which Jared Rivers is) for him. You've put together a fair argument for a spot in the side for him - I just can't agree to trading for him at this stage.

I thinkt he only way to get gun players will be by having picks in the first 15 of the draft, or some lucky drafting later on. Therefore I thinkwe should be trying to trade for top 15 picks. I could see Green and Bruce playing a role up forward and in the middle for Carlton. Their first pick (10ish) for those two perhaps. I also think Jones, McLean and Moloney are similar players and there won't be enough spots for all three in the future so Jones could be used to upgrade pick 15. Rivers may also want to go back to South Australia for him, but I wouldn't be giving him up too easily. All hypothetical, but I was interested in getting an opinion on these trades

Bruce and Green fitting into the Carlton midfield...you're joking right?

And David Hale...really?

We need to address three main areas, quality midfielders, another Key forward and a ruck. With Scully an easy pick at No1, we should pick the best key forward with our next pick this may be Butcher it may not but assuming that pick will be a good player or forward line will be very hard to beat. The tall forward has to be a big body or have the frame put on muscle mass. Watts will be athletic tall forward, we need a pack cruncher to balance our forward line.

Aussie Watts Jurrah

Bate Pick 3 Sylvia/Davey

Add Maric, Petterd, Dunn, Green, Jetta through the rotation plus the unknown of Strauss, Blease and Pick 18.

Use pick 18 for a midfielder.

What's he actually ever done? Last 4-5 weeks has 1-2 ok qtrs........ THATS IT! I would have him on the trade table now or even delist if it wasnt for his last 4 weeks. Too many short steps for me. Hence the 1 more year to prove his worth.

Came third in the B+F in 2007.

Has done extremely well for a forward in the worst team in the league, that gets the fewest Inside 50s in the league.

Has the most goals and equal in assists with Davey.

You, and others, have made a snap judgement on a poor 2008 and a few games early this season and have completely missed the very good form of a player whose value will increase as Watts, Jurrah, and Wonaeamirri become more prominent. He, as he showed on Sunday, can still have a run in the middle and be effective.

Sticking to snap judgements would have meant that Garland wouldn't have returned to the side after being dropped in early 2008...

If that doesn't give you pause nothing will...

I think drafting Butcher just 'because we need a full forward' is probably one of the riskiest things we could do. Just because he might be the best KPP in this draft, doesn't mean he'll solve our problems. Tapscott (spelling?) and Panos seem like the types to be successful at AFL level, it's hard to say with Butcher. Then again, I have a limited knowledge. I'll trust BP to make the right decision, but if we go into the draft simply looking to draft the best KP prospect, we might get ourselves into a bit of trouble. Midfield is clearly the area we need the most strengthening (if not a total reshape). Therefore, they should really pick Trengove and Scully. With our forwardline, it's too early to tell. None of them have played in the same team together over a sustained period (Bate, Aussie, Watts and Jurrah). Give them time and add a Panos and we may just have a forwardline to win us a premiership. But let's be honest here, it's all won in the midfield. Please pick Scully and Trengove.

I think drafting Butcher just 'because we need a full forward' is probably one of the riskiest things we could do. Just because he might be the best KPP in this draft, doesn't mean he'll solve our problems. Tapscott (spelling?) and Panos seem like the types to be successful at AFL level, it's hard to say with Butcher. Then again, I have a limited knowledge. I'll trust BP to make the right decision, but if we go into the draft simply looking to draft the best KP prospect, we might get ourselves into a bit of trouble. Midfield is clearly the area we need the most strengthening (if not a total reshape). Therefore, they should really pick Trengove and Scully. With our forwardline, it's too early to tell. None of them have played in the same team together over a sustained period (Bate, Aussie, Watts and Jurrah). Give them time and add a Panos and we may just have a forwardline to win us a premiership. But let's be honest here, it's all won in the midfield. Please pick Scully and Trengove.

All this draft pick talk is summed up in that line right there. MFC will not go past Trengove, they are not that silly. Our forward line will be versitile and will be created by the monster midfield. Enough of this vision that has been created, that it is vital we have a 'power forward' (American slang). Pick the 2 best players and let the side create itself, instead of creating a side (or vision of a side) with players that maybe a risk.

I would also like to know why Watts has already been labeled as an 'athletic type' forward and there for the assumption he wont split packs and physically impose himself? For god sakes the kid is 18. He will not fully fill out his body for another 3 years or so. Just you wait people.

Came third in the B+F in 2007.

Has done extremely well for a forward in the worst team in the league, that gets the fewest Inside 50s in the league.

Has the most goals and equal in assists with Davey.

You, and others, have made a snap judgement on a poor 2008 and a few games early this season and have completely missed the very good form of a player whose value will increase as Watts, Jurrah, and Wonaeamirri become more prominent. He, as he showed on Sunday, can still have a run in the middle and be effective.

Sticking to snap judgements would have meant that Garland wouldn't have returned to the side after being dropped in early 2008...

If that doesn't give you pause nothing will...

Im with you there,i think he has been 1 of our standouts this year & think hes the type of player who just needs a big experienced forward around him.He needs to just play off the HFF & not be asked to be FF or CHF.He has the best hands by a mile at the club & along with Sylvia is the only 1 that can constantly kick from outside 50.Has a great leg & can jump.I think in a few years he will regularly be kicking around the 50 goals per season

All this draft pick talk is summed up in that line right there. MFC will not go past Trengove, they are not that silly. Our forward line will be versitile and will be created by the monster midfield. Enough of this vision that has been created, that it is vital we have a 'power forward' (American slang). Pick the 2 best players and let the side create itself, instead of creating a side (or vision of a side) with players that maybe a risk.

So you wouldn't rate the Franklin/Roughead combination, or the Riewoldt/Koschitzke pairing?

Most premierships are built around dominant forwardlines, and I still think 2 key targets are the way to go...Structure everything else around that. Jurrah and Bate are not KPP. They are versatile, but are likely to struggle as focal points in attack.

To me, we are a 'key' forward (notice not 'power forward' ) short. We already have Grimes, Morton, Scully (will have...), Blease, Strauss and Bennell as quality prospects, in addition to Colin Sylvia and the veterans Davey & Green. We've basically already recruited 6 or 7 class mids in the last 3 years, and i mean, someone like Addam Maric could also develop into a class mid with his skills, particularly by foot.

To me, Trengove doesn't offer us anything majorly different from what we've already got... If we're going for a mid, i'd like to see us go for a more explosive player like a Gary Rohan or Anthony Morabito type player.

That's just my opinion for better or worse. He's going to be a quality AFL player Trengove, but like Rich, he's built for senior action now. So we shouldn't overlook the other's because they aren't dominating right now. Plus, as i said in another post, we'll still be able to nab a promising midfield type at pick 18 cause there's more depth than with the talls...

So you wouldn't rate the Franklin/Roughead combination, or the Riewoldt/Koschitzke pairing?

If there was a forward rated as highly as Scully is in the midfield, I doubt we'd be so heavily on the Trengove bandwagon, but the fact there aren't stand out KPFs is a major reason for this being a non-issue. All of that said, KPPs usually take longer to develop. There might be a late bloomer in this bunch.

Most premierships are built around dominant forwardlines, and I still think 2 key targets are the way to go...Structure everything else around that. Jurrah and Bate are not KPP. They are versatile, but are likely to struggle as focal points in attack.

I'd say they're built around dominant centrelines. Without one, the ball doesn't get there and if the delivery is spot on, it makes any forwards job easier. Plus, a dominant midfield kicks goals.

To me, we are a 'key' forward (notice not 'power forward' ) short. We already have Grimes, Morton, Scully (will have...), Blease, Strauss and Bennell as quality prospects, in addition to Colin Sylvia and the veterans Davey & Green. We've basically already recruited 6 or 7 class mids in the last 3 years, and i mean, someone like Addam Maric could also develop into a class mid with his skills, particularly by foot.

I don't deny this, however. A Panos type would be nice. I'd probably settle with Butcher too, ultimately.

To me, Trengove doesn't offer us anything majorly different from what we've already got... If we're going for a mid, i'd like to see us go for a more explosive player like a Gary Rohan or Anthony Morabito type player.

Except good skills. He can win the hard ball and has good skills. We have a lot that can win the hard ball (occasionally), with the likes of McLean, Moloney and Jones, but none are elite by foot or hand. McLean's kicking this year is some of the worst I've seen. This is what Trengove would bring us, class in spades.

That's just my opinion for better or worse. He's going to be a quality AFL player Trengove, but like Rich, he's built for senior action now. So we shouldn't overlook the other's because they aren't dominating right now.

Fair point and that's why I don't exactly envy BP's task. Particularly, with the majority of the supporter base hoping for the picks to the degree that they actually support the team losing a few games...if he doesn't deliver...well...ouch. Pressure time!

So you wouldn't rate the Franklin/Roughead combination, or the Riewoldt/Koschitzke pairing?

Most premierships are built around dominant forwardlines, and I still think 2 key targets are the way to go...Structure everything else around that. Jurrah and Bate are not KPP. They are versatile, but are likely to struggle as focal points in attack.

To me, we are a 'key' forward (notice not 'power forward' ) short. We already have Grimes, Morton, Scully (will have...), Blease, Strauss and Bennell as quality prospects, in addition to Colin Sylvia and the veterans Davey & Green. We've basically already recruited 6 or 7 class mids in the last 3 years, and i mean, someone like Addam Maric could also develop into a class mid with his skills, particularly by foot.

To me, Trengove doesn't offer us anything majorly different from what we've already got... If we're going for a mid, i'd like to see us go for a more explosive player like a Gary Rohan or Anthony Morabito type player.

That's just my opinion for better or worse. He's going to be a quality AFL player Trengove, but like Rich, he's built for senior action now. So we shouldn't overlook the other's because they aren't dominating right now.

Im not saying the Franklin/Roughead combination was a dominant force? If those sorts of players were on offer bloody hell I would love to snap them up, BUT they arn't. So there is no point looking down the pecking order and taking a risk on a player who is not the best atm. Just get the 2 best players which are Trengove and Scully. That was our Midfield will be Fantastic and make our forwardline look great.

As for Bennell he wont be a midfielder who will win us a flag, include Davey and Green...they offer different things. All the flag winning sides have about 6 REALLY good midfielders who they can rotate through it.

I just want to know 'IF' Watts and Jarrah can kick goal's and take marks which Jarrah has proven already and I 'think' Watts will do why do we need a so called Key forward? What else does a Key forward offer other than taking good marks and kicking goals? How is Jarrah and watts not going to be a Key forward?

I can see why you don't want to miss out on Butcher and I feel sorry for BP, but it is a risk and Trengove looks great.

If the rumours I am hearing are true, I would seek to do a trade with Adelaide. Pick 2 for pick 11 (currently) and Patrick Dangerfield.

Instead of a first year player who may or may not have the "go home" factor, you would add a 3rd year player who wants to live in Melbourne, who can play and who can kick a goal going forward (all seen already at AFL level). Either trade for Dangerfield or play hardball via the PSD.

And the bonus is that Pick 11 may still net Butcher.

I'm definitely not suggesting he's #1 flag ruckman. I'm a fan of a robust clearance creating/clearance winning/hard tackling ruckman like ... gulp ... Jamar, but I think you can only afford one in the 22. Spencer may develop into another of this type.

..........

........

........

It's just a suggestion, there are alternatives, Martin may be able to develop into this role, we've got a few more years up our sleeve before we're challenging and we could do this type of trade in any of the intervening years. Hale will be getting towards the end of his career around 2015-6 when we'll still be challenging (for our 3-peat?) but I'll take the 2014 flag thanks.

I like this thinking. If hale was to come and Jared was part of this swap then we'd keep Martin down back Id suggest. Thats a pretty potent forward 50 there Old Would be an absolute handful to defend. Add in the smalls , feed them well out of the middle ...and voila !!

Thanks old. You mentioned Martin's name and role late in your post. I do think that the role you foresee for Hale can be filled by Martin. That's not to say that picking Hale in the PSD is a terrible move for Melbourne, but I'd be loathe to trade anything useful (of which Jared Rivers is) for him. You've put together a fair argument for a spot in the side for him - I just can't agree to trading for him at this stage.

Last time we had the priority pick in 2003 we traded our 2nd rounder pick 20 for Ben Holland on the back of drafting two superstar midfielders at 3 & 5. And we got another "top 10 pick" as F/S at 36 too. We were rolling it it!

If the rumours I am hearing are true, I would seek to do a trade with Adelaide. Pick 2 for pick 11 (currently) and Patrick Dangerfield.

Instead of a first year player who may or may not have the "go home" factor, you would add a 3rd year player who wants to live in Melbourne, who can play and who can kick a goal going forward (all seen already at AFL level). Either trade for Dangerfield or play hardball via the PSD.

And the bonus is that Pick 11 may still net Butcher.

What about all the other rumours.......

No one knows for sure what will happen. It's Round 20 this week. I wouldn't swap pick 2. Not even for Chris Judd.

Im not saying the Franklin/Roughead combination was a dominant force? If those sorts of players were on offer bloody hell I would love to snap them up, BUT they arn't. So there is no point looking down the pecking order and taking a risk on a player who is not the best atm. Just get the 2 best players which are Trengove and Scully. That was our Midfield will be Fantastic and make our forwardline look great.

Yeah, but what's to say Butcher won't turn out as good as Roughead? I think people are assuming that Trengove is a clear cut no. 2 and i don't really agree with that. He's likely to be a top 5 pick for sure, but we should be considering other options...

As for Bennell he wont be a midfielder who will win us a flag, include Davey and Green...they offer different things. All the flag winning sides have about 6 REALLY good midfielders who they can rotate through it.

Bennell will play out of defence for the first few seasons, but as he builds up his endurance base, I think we'll see him spend more time rotating through the midfield. He reads the play well, is a good decion maker, has a bit of pace, and is a nice kick - perfect attributes for a receiving midfielder. He won't need to win us a flag on his own cause he'll have the likes of Scully, Grimes, Morton, Sylvia, Strauss, Blease and even Watts in support. That's at least 6 or 7 class players to rotate through the middle right there...

I just want to know 'IF' Watts and Jarrah can kick goal's and take marks which Jarrah has proven already and I 'think' Watts will do why do we need a so called Key forward? What else does a Key forward offer other than taking good marks and kicking goals? How is Jarrah and watts not going to be a Key forward?

I think both Watts and Jurrah are too versatile to be considered classical key forwards. Both will be more effective switching between the forwardline and the middle where they will create matchup havoc with their athleticism, skill and decision making. So we still need more of a 'stay at home' key forward like a Jarryd Roughead to provide a focal point for mine...

*shakes his head* and walks away ...

If there was a forward rated as highly as Scully is in the midfield, I doubt we'd be so heavily on the Trengove bandwagon, but the fact there aren't stand out KPFs is a major reason for this being a non-issue. All of that said, KPPs usually take longer to develop. There might be a late bloomer in this bunch.

Butcher is a standout KPP. He's the only one in the draft. He mightn't be at Scully's level, but he's still the standout KPP for mine. As you say, the KPP's take longer to develop, so we shouldn't write Butcher off because he hasn't had the same impact this year as Trengove.

I'd say they're built around dominant centrelines. Without one, the ball doesn't get there and if the delivery is spot on, it makes any forwards job easier. Plus, a dominant midfield kicks goals.

Sydney didn't really have a dominant centreline. They were a highly disciplined unit that relied on a quality forwardline to get the job done in low scoring matches. West Coast with all their midfield stars couldn't get the job done in 05', and only won by a point in '06. I agree that having a quality midfield setup is crucial for flag success, but you don't necessaily need half a dozen gun midfielders to get the job done. I think playing as a highly disciplined unit that works for each other is probably the most crucial ingredient. It's why St. Kilda can still win without its best 7 players.

I don't deny this, however. A Panos type would be nice. I'd probably settle with Butcher too, ultimately.

Haven't seen enough of Panos to make a call really. He sounds like a good prospect, but will he be around at pick 18?

Except good skills. He can win the hard ball and has good skills. We have a lot that can win the hard ball (occasionally), with the likes of McLean, Moloney and Jones, but none are elite by foot or hand. McLean's kicking this year is some of the worst I've seen. This is what Trengove would bring us, class in spades.

I agree that McLean, Jones, and Moloney are going to be under big pressure to retain their spot in the best 18 over the next few seasons. And you're right to question their skills (McLean should improve with a full preseason under his belt though).

But, as I see it, we're already going to have Scully, Grimes and Blease in addition to probably Sylvia contesting for those 'engine room' type spots. Blease might be a bit skinny at this stage, but one thing people may miss with him, is that he is really good at winning the contested ball, and is a terrific tackler, so he can play inside or out.

Fair point and that's why I don't exactly envy BP's task. Particularly, with the majority of the supporter base hoping for the picks to the degree that they actually support the team losing a few games...if he doesn't deliver...well...ouch. Pressure time!

Right. I mean, we can speculate all we want, but at the end of the day I think BP will make the right call. He had an excellent 1st draft imo (even though we haven't seen Strauss & Blease at senior level)..Draft day should be an exciting day for us with another 3 picks inside the top 20!!

*shakes his head* and walks away ...

Want to elaborate?

You beg for people to give Butcher a chance because he may become a champion player and KPP take a bit longer... yet for some reason you seem to have blind faith he will be a superstar.

All I hear is excuses for why he hasn't shown better form.

For a pick 2 I need to see proven form or at least all the tools needed to be a dominant player. Good hands and nice size are not enough. He has to show more.

Your agrument that he is the best KPP available is irrelevant - is he better than the others available?

If Brent Grgic was the best KPP in this draft does that mean you still take him at pick 2 because you want a KPP?

No, its means you wait til next year and maybe take some lat speculative picks on KPPs in this draft.

Butcher has not shown enough for mine.

If he turns out to be another Joel Selwood (ie. player not taking higher because of injury) - so be it. I'm not willing to take the risk.

And it is a risk, that is why Selwood lasted until pick 7.

(obviously Selwood's worry was that he'd had possible career threatening injuries whereas Butcher just hasn't show great form , possibly due to injury)

FWIW - here is MY take on John Butcher after having watched him during 2008/2009:

His injury may well have hampered him and his form this year.

While I seem to be harsh on him - he has his good aspects too which will appeal to clubs:

He's not scared of the collision and he jumps honesty at the footy in the air, he has a great pair of hands.

However, like all kids in the draft he has his downsides also:

His kicking is extremely hot and cold (im also referring to field kicking here) - and his efforts over a 4 quarter period leave a lot to be desired.

Sadly has looked out of sorts with his peers as well this year (at Maffra and Gippy). He's got some talent but has struggled to impact this year, and I personally would love to see him at CHB for a few games to demonstrate his versatillity.

You beg for people to give Butcher a chance because he may become a champion player and KPP take a bit longer... yet for some reason you seem to have blind faith he will be a superstar.

Talk about being melodramatic...Jeez, I never said he was going to be a 'superstar'. I never 'begged' anyone for anything!! I just said that he's a 'high quality' KPP prospect, and we should seriously consider him. He's not bloody Grgic either, that's just insulting...

But a number of you lot have written him off because he hasn't teared u-18's apart this year. You can't tell me that having little or no pre-season and carrying injuries makes a difference to performance?

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you, or I, or anyone else thinks, BP & Bailey will make the right decision with pick 2. If that's Trengove, so be it.

But, we should be looking further than just him for pick 2 imo, because I still think Scully's the absolute standout of the lot....

Talk about being melodramatic...Jeez, I never said he was going to be a 'superstar'. I never 'begged' anyone for anything!! I just said that he's a 'high quality' KPP prospect, and we should seriously consider him. He's not bloody Grgic either, that's just insulting...

But a number of you lot have written him off because he hasn't teared u-18's apart this year. You can't tell me that having little or no pre-season and carrying injuries makes a difference to performance?

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you, or I, or anyone else thinks, BP & Bailey will make the right decision with pick 2. If that's Trengove, so be it.

But, we should be looking further than just him for pick 2 imo, because I still think Scully's the absolute standout of the lot....

Lock it in, Eddie.

Melbourne will take Bryce Gibbs over Scott Gumbleton.

Lock it in, Eddie.

Melbourne will take Bryce Gibbs over Scott Gumbleton.

So you're saying Bryce Gibbs is Trengove and Gumbleton's Butcher?..So basically, Butcher's going to play a handful of AFL games in the next 3 seasons due to chronic injury..

Nostradamus would be impressed..