Carlton 2007

[Jarka 767]

Agree Vanlo. I understand that CAC rated Morton ahead of Masten. MFC weree very excited that Morton was still there at four. I am not sure all Clubs had Kruezer No 1 pick that year. Cotchin was rated as good a prospect as Kruezer.

Spot on RR, Many believed Cotchin to be a better footballer but you can understand why the Blues went after a kid like Kreuzer.

Masten is very underrated in Victoria, that kid is going to be a star.

[deanox 9,935]

it was my understanding that one of the major reasons WC passed on morton was because they didn't expect him to hang around west with his brothers back in melbourne.

[Jerry Lundergard 420]

I am actually getting to the point that the whole worry of whether we will win more than 4 games is completely sh*tting me, that i am starting to lean toward the philosophy of not actually caring, and just wanting to win as many games as we can whilst still playing the kids.

Hawthorn is still the only team to have won a flag in recent memory on the back of a bottom-out rebuild, and it took an off day in front of goals form the Cats for that to happen.

I am not saying that the prospect of 2 of the first 3 picks in this years draft isn't appealing, but if we had a core group players on our team who all of a sudden had the belief to be able to influence games in such a way that we started to win games on a regular basis, then that would be as equally important to me.

I find it hard to feel good about losing games, honorably or not. And would much prefer a culture of not excepting losses, from both the team and supporters.

If you look at the teams that have won premierships this decade, Essendon, Brisbane, Port, Sydney, West Coast, Geelong and Hawthorn, i don't think you could point to any one thing that singles out why they had the success that we all crave, but there are intangibles that can't be found at the draft table, as well as plenty of luck, whether that be injuries, an outstanding father-son, salary cap concessions, getting a team at the end of their reign, relying on your opponent having an off day, picking up player late in the draft who becomes an all time great, etc..

In essence, i guess i am saying it is not all doom and gloom like some predict if we don't acquire the pick, as none of know exactly what makes a team a "premiership team", sure you need talent and i believe we have that already, but there are many other factors at play as well, so i for one will be hoping we win on Sunday, and against the Saints the week after and turn 4-7 after beating the Pies on QBD.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I find it hard to feel good about losing games, honorably or not. And would much prefer a culture of not excepting losses, from both the team and supporters.

Who feels good about it??

The issue is that we need to realistic as to where our list is and its gone through a complete overhaul in two year or so. Given the lack of leading contributing senior players and the high number of talented but inexperienced kids on the list the past two years were always about rebuilding and development.

I think we are developing a very successful culture both on and off the field. But it takes time to develop young footballers.

The thing that all premiership teams have is they have a good list headed at two players who are elite or stars. The next 12 to 14 players are either very good or talented players. We need to build that list. Leigh Matthews wrote an article earlier this year where he said that having the talent on the list is 80% of the job. The coach, the game plan and other things like injury run/ tribunal reliefs etc make up the 20%. In essence a premiership team needs all those things to go right.

Ultimately MFC need to continue to add and develop that list. There is alot of promise on that list already but IMO we need another crack midfielder, another quality forward and a more than capable ruckman to fill it out.

As for bottom out rebuilds, I dont think it stops at Hawthorn. St Kilda was rebuild and alot of the key elements of their line up comae together 7 to 8 years ago from top picks. Carlton are on that trend. Geelong was likewise (although graciously help by 3 to 5 father son selections, two of which Ablett and Scarlett are outstanding elite players).

[Jerry Lundergard 420]

As for bottom out rebuilds, I dont think it stops at Hawthorn. St Kilda was rebuild and alot of the key elements of their line up comae together 7 to 8 years ago from top picks. Carlton are on that trend. Geelong was likewise (although graciously help by 3 to 5 father son selections, two of which Ablett and Scarlett are outstanding elite players).

I didn't mention these clubs purely because they haven't won anything yet, and may never either.

I too would love another elite midfielder, but we may land a Joel Selwood, instead of a Brett Delidio, or a Dean Cox, instead of a Josh Fraser. I know we give ourselves a better chance by picking higher up, but nothing is for certain in this caper.

I look at the Sydney team, and wonder how they ever won a premiership and continue to win with that team. Their heart and soul was a rookie(Kirk), their best defender a discard(Bolton) and their loose cannon forward in Hall who could have amounted to just another wasted talent in the AFL.

Or how the West Coast were able to win a flag on the back of an outstanding midfield, but a forward line, probably no better than our current one.

While the picks are available for teams the debate will always be waged in the media, on forums, offices and so on, and i find it equally intriguing and frustrating when your team is the one being debated, as there seems to be no clear cut solution to me.

[Jarka 767]

I am actually getting to the point that the whole worry of whether we will win more than 4 games is completely sh*tting me, that i am starting to lean toward the philosophy of not actually caring, and just wanting to win as many games as we can whilst still playing the kids.

Hawthorn is still the only team to have won a flag in recent memory on the back of a bottom-out rebuild, and it took an off day in front of goals form the Cats for that to happen.

I am not saying that the prospect of 2 of the first 3 picks in this years draft isn't appealing, but if we had a core group players on our team who all of a sudden had the belief to be able to influence games in such a way that we started to win games on a regular basis, then that would be as equally important to me.

I find it hard to feel good about losing games, honorably or not. And would much prefer a culture of not excepting losses, from both the team and supporters.

If you look at the teams that have won premierships this decade, Essendon, Brisbane, Port, Sydney, West Coast, Geelong and Hawthorn, i don't think you could point to any one thing that singles out why they had the success that we all crave, but there are intangibles that can't be found at the draft table, as well as plenty of luck, whether that be injuries, an outstanding father-son, salary cap concessions, getting a team at the end of their reign, relying on your opponent having an off day, picking up player late in the draft who becomes an all time great, etc..

In essence, i guess i am saying it is not all doom and gloom like some predict if we don't acquire the pick, as none of know exactly what makes a team a "premiership team", sure you need talent and i believe we have that already, but there are many other factors at play as well, so i for one will be hoping we win on Sunday, and against the Saints the week after and turn 4-7 after beating the Pies on QBD.

I disagree, every team you mentioned benefited significantly in some way by an extraordinary way of getting players onto their lists.

Essendon - Had the least amount of help although received Lloyd through the 1994 pre draft selections for losing some average players to an interstate team. Also picked up Fletcher as a father & son.

Brisbane - Where do I start? Extra room in the salary cap, access to best local talent outside of the draft (J.Akermanis), ability to pick through the Fitzroy carcass (Chris Johnson, J.Molloy - used to get M.Michael ), Father/son selection (Jon Brown), Priority pick (Headland) and a heap of low picks (Power, Lappin, Leppitsch)

Port Adelaide - Pre draft selections (Tredrea, Dew, Eagleton, Wilson, James, Lade, Burgoyne, Wanganeen, Primus) + early draft picks

Hawthorn - Well documented, no need to go over it again.

West Coast - Priority pick (C.Judd), Father/son (B.Cousins)

Sydney - Extra room in the salary Cap

Geelong - Father/son selections (Ablett x2, Scarlett)

[Toad33 57]

I know this topic has been talked about on many threads. However, I think its time to remind all of what Carlton did in 2007 and how they have benefited.

The years before:

2005 - Wooden Spoon

2006 - Wooden Spoon

2007

Premiers - NAB Cup

After round 11 Carlton had a record of 4 wins - 7 losses after back to back wins over the Western Bulldogs and Port Adelaide.

Round 16 v Brisbane Lions: Carlton loss by 117 points, Pagan Sacked. Ratten replaces as tempory coach.

Round 22 v Melbourne: A pathetic Melbourne wins its 5th game by beating Carlton by 31 points, in so losing its priority pick. Melbourne end the season with pick 4 (Cale Morton).

Ratten coaches out the season without a win, losing the last 6 games with an average losing margin of 30 points.

Despite coaching to 0-6, the Blues can't get enough of their new coach and on the 20th August 2007 sign Ratten to a two year contact (very suspect).

Carlton receive pick 1 and 2 in the draft after winning 4 games. Melbourne receives pick 4 after winning 5 games the 5th being Carlton in round 22. Carlton takes Cruzer with pick 1, and use pick 2 in part of a trade for Chris Judd. End result is Carlton pick up the undisputed best player in the competition and the best school aged player in the country.

Melbourne must learn from Carton of 07. With compromised drafts for 5 years this is Melbourne’s chance to take the best two young players in the country, stop other teams getting these players, add to the list with number one pick in PSD and complete phase 2 (list build) of the grand plan.

The advantage is further multiplied by the fact that there is next to no chance of other teams outside of the new clubs being able to replenish their lists over coming 5 years. Most current top eight clubs will be well past it by 2013/14. (Carlton and perhaps Hawthorn being the exceptions).

Conclusion: The MFC has a once in a life time opportunity. Adding pick 1 & 2 plus say 19 or 20th pick to an already impressive young list will give us the best chance of breaking our the premiership drought.

Now I am not suggesting to anyone that we should go out and try and lose games. We have a great young list and even the mandatory 3 delistings at the end of the season will be difficult let along the likely 6. Young players with potential will have to be cut. Best we give them all a run and make sure we are delisting the right players. We have a great opportunity to play all ready young players, try them in new positions and really give everyone on our list the chance to show us they have the potential to be a premiership player.

Life is too short, the precedent has been set. The draft rules must be changed but while they are what they are we must take advantage of them. Some may look down on this, but Premierships don't just happen. Hawthorn played out 2004 trying out their entire list and they were rewarded with Roughead, Franklin and a premiership. Carlton played out 2007 trying their entire list and they were rewarded with Judd, Cruzer and a soon to be opened premiership window. Melbourne must do the same if it too is to be rewarded. A Grand New Flag would confirm the saving of our great club. Lets not cheat lets just be smart.

Good post GNF....but you have missed out the most important piece of the puzzle that allowed Carlton that priority pick.

MARK RILEY

Who I here you say!!

Mark was the stand in coach for Neale Daniher for that fateful game, and, once he was out the running for the MFC senior coaching job had signed up with the Blues before the ink had dried on Dean Bailey's contract.

Mark Riley allowed this to happen and even got rewarded with an assistant coaching job for it BY CARLTON no less!!!

I am also on the 'win less than 5' band wagon and think that the club is already 'managing' it playing stocks to help facilitate that scenario.

I should add that Eddie McQuire was adamant at the time that Melbourne had made a HUGE mistake by winning that game and that it would haunt the club for the next 10 years.

I am not sure that that statement is going the end up being true or not, but will leave you with this to ponder.

IF Carlton had won that game we would have had a pre-round 1 priority pick LAST season. Nic Natanui, D Rich, Hurley, Ziebell et. al. anyone?

Go Dees - Building for the Future.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I didn't mention these clubs purely because they haven't won anything yet, and may never either.

I heard the same comments about Hawthorn before they won this year. If they have not won a flag they are seriously challenge this year and probably in the next couple of years as well

I too would love another elite midfielder, but we may land a Joel Selwood, instead of a Brett Delidio, or a Dean Cox, instead of a Josh Fraser. I know we give ourselves a better chance by picking higher up, but nothing is for certain in this caper.

I was once shown some statistics of drafing over the past 10 years and the results shows you have a greater probability of picking the better footballers in the first round than in later rounds. We can all come around with a first round dud and a fifth year star. If your recruiting team does there job properly then you should land the best players of that year in your line up. For example last year, the NSM was Luke Hodge (pick 2 2001), Coleman Medallist Franklin (Pick 4 2004) and the B'low Medallist (Cooney Pick 1 -2003) Hmmmm!!

I look at the Sydney team, and wonder how they ever won a premiership and continue to win with that team. Their heart and soul was a rookie(Kirk), their best defender a discard(Bolton) and their loose cannon forward in Hall who could have amounted to just another wasted talent in the AFL.

You both overlooked a couple of key players and severely underestimated the talent of a number of players. Goodes, Kenneally, Barry, O'Loughlin and the other Bolton for starters. Hall is a loose fuse at times and is coming to the end of his career. However at his peak Hall was an elite power forward who was an influence and smart football talent. When Sydney traded for Hall they knew with O'Loughlin they had players they could build a premiership side around and actively traded for players to supplement their list to make hay while the sun shined.

Or how the West Coast were able to win a flag on the back of an outstanding midfield, but a forward line, probably no better than our current one.

Just shows the importance of a potent and damaging midfield. We dont have one yet.

While the picks are available for teams the debate will always be waged in the media, on forums, offices and so on, and i find it equally intriguing and frustrating when your team is the one being debated, as there seems to be no clear cut solution to me.

I think the evidence of the importance of draft picks to build talent is definitely out there. Even more so with the decline of the end of season trade and that few clubs are blessed with great father/son options. It has also brought the importance of getting rookie selections right as well. No longer are they are uneducated punt on a young player.

[Banter 0]

Finally melbourne is showing some fight, promise and real team pride and all that I seem to see and hear is talk of us loosing games.

Yes I want to see the playing list being rebuilt as is already happening just as I am over the moon that so many other facets of the club are being rebuilt - from the coaching staff to the board to Matt Burgan now doing excellent articles for the web site every week. And yes I want to see the club playing the young players in different positions to see who is worth their spot on the list.

However all this focus on loosing is counter productive in my opinion. I'd like to see the players having a fair dinkum crack every week not in the least to create that sort of culture amongst the young players just as they have been doing in the last few weeks. If that means having the odd win then great.

So yes of course I'd like to see Melbourne get some decent draft picks but I think just as important (and maybe more important) is creating a culture of having a fair crack at winning.

[H_T 3,049]

Thats all fine Banter and good post by the way. I would love to see the team compete time and time again. This current list would just benefit greatly with another addition of quality players/picks before making greater inroads next season. Sustained quality and good footy - finals footy and greater chance of our much sort after premiership

[dreamin' man 0]

Call me irresponsible ... but I would hate to take a leaf out of the Carlton book in any way -- just never want to emulate their crooked ways -- & would love our young players to get accustomed to the thrill of winning & the team bonding that comes with it.

[rpfc 28,526]

We just don't tank well at the Dees.

The first rule about tanking - Don't talk about tanking...

At least not yet...

Let's have this painful chat when we are 2 and 15 heading into Rich, NM, and Freo.

For all we know we might be 5 and 12 heading into those three games at which point it is moot city...

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

Call me irresponsible ... but I would hate to take a leaf out of the Carlton book in any way -- just never want to emulate their crooked ways -- & would love our young players to get accustomed to the thrill of winning & the team bonding that comes with it.

Agreed. Let the rest of the league hate us for just being too good for them, not because we are low life cheats like Carlton.

[Sir Why You Little 37,049]

We need a power forward to compliment Watts, & some more class in the Mid field.

The Rules are there to be used. If Vlad doesn't believe in Tanking well then it doesn't Happen. Nobody will remember 2009 in a few years, aside from ourselves, so in my opinion the 4 game rule should be in the back of MFC planning as long as it does not hinder the Progress of our young list.

Don't forget this club has never produced a Century goalkicker-As with a Flag, i want to see that.

[H_T 3,049]

Don't forget this club has never produced a Century goalkicker-As with a Flag, i want to see that.

Century goalkickers these days are almost a dying breed the way the game is played, Franklin being the obvious exception. But that is a whole other need for another thread.

ON MY HIGH HORSE:

I want to see a flag in my lifetime, I want to enjoy one whilst I'm still young enough to get on the p#*s and not worry about any medication for a week after winning one.

The supporters of the Hawks, Blues and Bombers of the past two decades just don't know how good they've had it....they 've almost taken it for granted.

It's been a generation, nearly two since Melbourne's last flag.

So if I'm being a little unselfish in wanting the best opportunity for a chance at a flag, just bump me or tell me to keep quiet, I can handle it.. Because I think obtaining a priority pick in this years draft might help. Because the draft in the next 5 years most likely won't.

As BT told Brucey on the Sunday Footy Show, "not more than 4 Brucey."

End of rant.

HT.

[Sir Why You Little 37,049]

Century goalkickers these days are almost a dying breed the way the game is played, Franklin being the obvious exception. But that is a whole other need for another thread.

ON MY HIGH HORSE:

I want to see a flag in my lifetime, I want to enjoy one whilst I'm still young enough to get on the p#*s and not worry about any medication for a week after winning one.

The supporters of the Hawks, Blues and Bombers of the past two decades just don't know how good they've had it....they 've almost taken it for granted.

It's been a generation, nearly two since Melbourne's last flag.

So if I'm being a little unselfish in wanting the best opportunity for a chance at a flag, just bump me or tell me to keep quiet, I can handle it.. Because I think obtaining a priority pick in this years draft might help. Because the draft in the next 5 years most likely won't.

As BT told Brucey on the Sunday Footy Show, "not more than 4 Brucey."

End of rant.

HT.

I concur wholeheartedly with your rant HT. I too wish to get on the P@#&*$$ for at least 2 weeks after a flag, asking my Doc for a medical certificate!

Because the 100 Goalkickers are becoming a dying Breed I want to see it even More...It can be done....