Post 09 I agree with you, but I think for the 09 season due to external issues (school, school footy, age, development etc) I would be suprised if he plays more then 10 games, great if he does. Based on this, his importance this season would have to equal his ranking of 22-23 at this point. Only if he delivers beyond 10 games will his importance (on the field) improve. I would suggest grimes, strauss, bennell, Jurrah & co will be just as important, potentially more at this point in time for 09 as they have the potential to be 20 game players for us in 09. blease and watts unlikely. Past 09 all this changes.

I think you miss the point of the distinction between best and important

He is important now no matter how many games he plays in 2009. He was high importance the day he was drafted.

Watts needs to become a 200 game leading player and possible leader at the Club to justify the selection. He was chosen because he was deemed the best footballer in the country in his draft year. He needs to be the star we expect if we are going to be a successful side. If Watts does not succeed at the top level its a critical plank of our future success down the drain. Grimes, Strauss and Bennell are also important and if they reach the success level that we believe Watts can do then all the better for MFC. Draft picks beyond #35 are generally players with a higher degree of NQR skills and a greater probabiilty of failure. If they succceed great. If they dont then its not something that is unexpected. Jurrah is a punt nothing more with an high risk of crashing and burning. If he fails so what. And if there is a footballer that will need some significant development on and off the field, its Jurrah.

In terms of importance, Jamar would probably rank in the top 10. I don't rate him as a footballer, but he's clearly our most competitive ruckman.

PJ is overrated in my opinion. People get caught up with his physical attributes, but he has yet to dominate a game as either a ruckman or a key forward.

Meesen and Spencer are unknown quantities, and that's being kind, hence Jamar becomes extremely important to the make up of our side.

ATM, I would agree with you on Jamar. In regard to PJ he needs to be assessed on the same par as Jamar. He needs to be competitive as opposed to dominate which I do not think he will do. With the advent of 4 boundary umpires, the need for mobility will become important and as a follower rather than ruckman he might have a future. But he is no No 1 ruckman.

Its a good point of consideration for the assessment of importance of a player (as opposed to best) if you had to consider the alternatives if that player was injured and the impact on the team.

PJ is overrated in my opinion. People get caught up with his physical attributes, but he has yet to dominate a game as either a ruckman or a key forward.

And Jamar has??????

I clicked this topic and thought it would be refering to games, read the first line and decided i will stay the hell away from this topic.

And the guys who have been below their best for a while, will need to rekindle some of their prev form/potential.

I take your point about watts and yes on paper he is probably in the top 3-4 without playing a game. But for 09 his impact on the game will likely be measured thus we need to look at others for 09.

Moloney, Rivers, Brock, sylvia etc are the others. If these 4 all play 20+ games and stay fit we will be a lot more competative then what people think.

If it is truly 'best' to worst it should look like this:

1 Jared Rivers

2 Brock McLean

3 Brad Green

4 James McDonald

5 Matthew Whelan

6 Russell Robertson

7 Aaron Davey

8 Paul Johnson

9 Brad Miller

10 Paul Wheatley

11 brent Moloney

12 Colin Sylvia

14 nathan Jones

15 Matthew Bate

16 Matthew Warnock

17 Simon Buckley

18 Cale Morton

19 Clint Bartram

20 Austin Wonaemirri

21 Daniel Bell

22 Lynden Dunn

23 Mark Jamar

24 Simon Buckley

25 Michael Newton

26 Ricky Petterd

27 Addam Maric

28 Stefan Martin

29 Jack Grimes

30 James Frawley

31 Kyle Cheney

32 Tom McNamara

33 John Meesen

Based on potential:

1 Jack Watts

2 Cale Morton

3 Jack Grimes

4 Col Sylvia

5 Brock McLean

6 Col Garland

7 Ricky Petterd

8 Tom McNamara

9 Addam Maric

10 Sam Blease

11 James Strauss

12 Jamie Bennell

13 matthew Bate

14 James Frawley

15 Stef Martin

16 Simon Buckley

17 Michael Newton

18 John Meeson

19 Austin Wonaemirri

20 Kyle Cheney

Dee-tox, I wouldn't call that a "true" best and worst list, almost simply because it's a nigh on impossible thing to do.

Petterd is a better player than Bell, Dunn and Newton IMO, but he would fall lower because of his injuries. Doesn't mean he's not a better player.

Jack Grimes may well be one of the best players on that list, but he's a second year player having played 1 game. Again, it doesn't mean he's not a better player.

The criteria and classifications really do need to be defined.

A list cannot be defined by "potential," it's a "quality" that cannot be qualified

This thread is about 'best to worst' not who is most important to the team.

I don't think PJ is in the top 10 best players at the club, I have him behind McLean, Bruce, Green, Morton, Rivers, Robertson, Davey, Miller, Jones, Bate and a couple of others.

Who at of that list above do you think PJ is better than?

Its not a question of whether he is best, but more of an arguement that he is extremely important to our team. To be honest, he would have to be our best ruckman, and heaven forbid if he does get injured, how are we to replace him? Jamar isn't bad in the ruck, but as the 'whole package' goes doesn't even rate. Meesen and Spencer aren't ready to play at AFL level IMO.

But i suppose if you want to rate him as a 'best' player, your right, there are others who rate above him. I still think give him a chance. He'll still improve this coming season. I've always been told as a rule of thumb that ruckmen take longer to mature. This is PJ's year to mature.

Gippy

I'll have ago at a list of the best. As I see it.

1. Brock Mclean - If he stays on the park he will be the likely B&F winner in 09 and captain in 2010.

2. Cam Bruce - best and fairest winner- shouldn't have to say more but will. Poor disposal let him down at times last year. Other than that he was still our most valuable player. More touches than any other. Others criticism of him shows little understanding of the game. He actually wins plenty of his own ball and although not an enforcer he isn't soft.

3. Brad Green - would of been happy to trade him for pick 16 but there's no denying he's become a determined, strong, brave and classy player.

4. Cale Morton - For an 18 year old he ripped it apart last year, will be an excellent player in the near future.

5. Colin Garland - Claver, good skills, knows where to be, punches above his weight, just ask Buddy. Could well become a leader in the future.

6. Brad Miller - stepped up last year and plays with a real determination that I admire. Not the best forward in the land but without any help held his own and plays for the jumper. Can't ask for anymore than that. Needs another good year.

7.Colin Sylvia - If it's true that he "trained the house down" Colin could well be a real bolter this year. Fingers well and truly crossed as I'm a big fan.

8. Jared Rivers - Again if it's true that he's training and fit he'll climb much higher, needs to play some footy to show he still has it, which I'm sure he still has.

9. James McDonald - Very happy to see our team run out behind this guy. Smart, tough as they come, gives it everything, will lead with his heart on his sleave. Has the game past him by, a little, but this will be an honour he well deserves. Let's hope his young team mates can learn from him.

10.Brent Moloney - Needs a few more tricks but leaves nothing on the park. Please Brent, don't get injured!

11. Nathan Jones - With support should become a valuable member of our midfield. Last year would have been very tough for him. However I think it wouldh've been very good for his development. He certainly knows what it takes to play AFL. I think we'll find his resolve was hardened over the last 12 months, will enjoy having Brock and Brent next to him, And who wouldn't?

12. Aaron Davey - Consistency a problem but is one of our few potential match winners. With good coaching and plenty of tiime up forward is due a good year, maybe even a great one.

13. Simon Buckley - strong, fierce, determined, fast and just seems to have what it takes. Needs to learn some detail but could be a real beauty.

14. Lynden Dunn - I'm calling 08 a development year for Lynden. Think he should play forward/Midfield and pick up the opposing sides most attacking HB flanker. I have the feeling this is the role he's being groomed for already. I think Heath Shaw's nightmares are going to have Lynden in them in the not too distant future.

15. Matthew Bate - Has shown glimpse of what he is capable of and if he produces that on a regular basis should become a very important player for us. He's got good hands, a booming kick and needs a good player to mind him.

16. Jack Watts - I know he hasn't played a game but he's training with us which in my opinion puts him ahead of many on our list.

17. Matthew Whelan - tough, strong, dependable and if fit should give us 2 -3 more solid seasons. His dash and strength has been sorely missed

18. Matthew Warnock - Given some very harrowing assignments last season and rarely left the ground a beaten man. A solid pre season and some midfield support should see him continue in that vain this year.

19. Stef Martin - I'm a fan and reckon he could turn out to be a revelation over the next few years. Needs 2 -3 more years in the system before we see his best. Could also see him as a future forward option Has time and space which is a huge plus. He also runs like the wind.

20. Jack Grimes - On reputation alone he's in my top 20. If you believe any of the hype this kids a monty to be a 10 year player for the club.

21. Adam Maric - Shows plenty of what this club really needs. CLASS. I really think this kids going to be something special. Appears his pre season's been interrupted which is a real pity. We may have to wait a few months to see him back in the team. I think the wait will be well worth it.

22. Paul Johnson - Not as big a fan as some but I do like his style. Gives it his all and will probably keep improving over the next few years, probably unlucky to be this low on the list.

23. Russell Robertson - I fear that he's finished at the top level. I'm very happy to be proved wrong.

24. Austin Wonamaerri - Keep improving Wona because we all love you. Has that ability to get excited and get us excited. In this day and age he's a breath of fresh air and I really hope he'll eek out a position in our best 22 over the next few years.

25. James Frawley - Hasn't performed yet but I fully expect James to become a member of our next premeirship backline. Has the pedigree and shows enough for me to believe he has a real future at the club.

26. Clint Bartram - Is he good enough? Time will tell. Certainly had a great year first up, and I'm yet to form an opinion on him. However, I'm not sure he fits in to our skilled, fast future.

27. Daniel Bell - Not out of the question that he could improve markedly and leave some people around here with egg on their face, but probably won't.

28. Ricky Petterd - Have I missed something. The handful of games have been sadly over shadowed by injury. Let's hope he can lift his output to match his reputation around here.

29. Paul Wheatley - Don't expect him to be anywhere near the top 22 when we challenge again.

30. Micheal Newton - It's all up to Micheal. Another who needs to play the house down instead of training the house down.

31. Mark Jamar - See above. Although to be fair, The Russian gives it his all and is unfairly criticied at times.

McNamara, Cheney and Meesen - Jury is out on the first 2, Jury has already hung the 3rd guy. Let's hope they all turn out to be great players. You Know what, let's hope one of them becomes a regular this year.

And now a lsit of the most important.

1. Jack Watts

2. Brock Mclean

3. Jared Rivers

4. Colin Garland

5. Colin Sylvia

6. Cale Morton

7. Jack Grimes

8. Aaron Davey

9. Brad Miller

10. Adam Maric

11. Simon Buckley

12. Matthew Warnock

13. Stef Martin

14. James Frawley

15. Matthew Bate

16. Brad Green

17. Lynden Dunn

18. Nathan Jones

19. Brent Moloney

20. Paul Johnson

21. Ricky Petterd

22. Austin Wonamaerri

23. James McDonald

24. Cam Bruce

26. Matthew Whelan

26. Micheal Newton

27. Clint Bartram

28. Mark Jamar

29. Daniel Bell

30. Paul Wheatley

31. Russell Robertson

Ranking players is an interesting concept - it's difficult to combine contribution and potential. And potential is very hard to measure. When I went to training in late 2003 I thought I was looking at the new Mark Riccuito when I saw Colin Sylvia.

Warnock is probably going to have more contribution value than Watts in 2009. And contribution not only depends on skills but it depends on getting them out on the field. There's a fair chance that Warnock will (again) have more contribution than Rivers in 2009 if current trends continue.

I prefer a ranking of absolute current contribution (score out of say 10 points) to the 1st 22 year each year. Say in 2008 Warnock would be rated a 5 and Martin a 2 or maybe a 3. In 2009 Warnock may again get a 5 and Martin gets a 5, 2010 Warnock is locked on 5 and Martin is on 7. Potential is measured in the change in absolute rating over the years - then we don't get confused about say Sylvia's, Rivers' and Bell's value. How many times have they rated an absolute 5 or more and what's the trend? Just rank them in order of how good they are right now - real potential is shown in an increase in these values.

There's the issue of "depth" players, but depth players are only worth hanging onto if they have ranked 5+ for some reasonable time in their careers and have proven value - Godfrey or Ward anyone?

Bate is no further ahead than Newton. He had a shocking year. and Morton will be way above both of these players in years to come

You're kidding, right? Bate is most definitely better than Newton. Yes, Bate's 2008 was poor, but Newton's couldn't have been better, and as far as I know, Bate's pre-2008 far exceeds Newton's. In fact, Newtons' career consists of nothing more than a couple of speccies and a couple of freakish goals. But yes, Morton will be far above these two by the end of next year (at least).

Very harsh on Jones, I m really dumbfounded as to why he cops so much flack - particularly those who criticise the fact he tries to bust through tackles - this guy is still very young and he will learn how to refine his trade... I have mentioned this before but look at PChapman - when he gets tackled he kind of ducks in his knees a bit, not the head/shoulders so the arm of the bloke tackling him automatically slips up over his back and he either slips out of it or gets taken high and a free kick. This is the type of thing players master with experience, and I would be disgusted if anybody tried to coach Jones into not taking on tackles. Jones' best asset is of course his work in the packs which is already at a very high level. Scott west is an excellent bloke to be around this guy and IMO he will be one of our best for the next decade'

Yes, but Jones can't dispose of the ball. His kicking is atrocious. I do like his grunt and toughness, but he absolutely has to improve his kicking. We cannot afford to persevere with players who cannot dispose of the ball. It's a waste of time.

I will give a top 20, as it tails off after that and the list is so young.

This is based on a mix of importance to the team, ability, potential and X factor.

1. Jared Rivers

2. Brock McLean

3. Cale Morton

4. Brad Green

5. Colin Garland

6. Colin Sylvia

7. Jack Watts

8. Addam Maric

9. Brent Moloney

10. Aaron Davey

11. Simon Buckley

12. Austin Wonamaerri

13. Nathan Jones

14, Matthew Bate

15. Paul Johnson

16. Brad Miller

17. Stefan Martin

18. James McDonald

19. Matthew Warnock

20. Ricky Petterd

YM the only issue I see here is Jnr at 18. As it stands now he is easily in our top 10 along with bruce. Maloney and Sylvia are yet to preform to expectation so until this happens they would have to slip out of the top 10. Also maric for jones for similar reasons

Maybe now that Yze has retired, you can call yourself Bruce Magic!