Blease & Strauss are CRITICAL to the Club's improvement

[stueyspencer no12 73]

Well, Rhino [and Shtack] height certainly IS the issue. Melbourne's rucks are undersized against many opponents. And make no mistake--the publicity was to the effect that Meesen was being recruited to cure this problem.

You will imagine therefore our bemused surprise when in the pre-season game we lost by a huge margin, Meesen did not contest a single ball-up. Played much of the time on the wing!

And we happily accept that this fellow has a 3 year contract!!!!We would have done better to cut our losses. And yes--if making the finals`this year was a priority, giving Peter Street a 1 year contract [as Brisbane were happy to do]would have made sense. As we are a $1.85 favourite for the spoon, it wouldn't have.

[Guest Schtacker]

Good work Shhtack. Cracking bit of melodrama without any content. Ripping stuff. Now dont give yourself a headache.

I'll remember not to try anything too sharp for you next time. Its a deal. And dont bump the thread in future years Shhtack you just might even realise the amount of floss you have written and how little you actually comprehended back then.

and congratulations to you for the third time being unable to backup any of your claims or counter any arguments. I'll just remember the NQR tag you have put on those 6 players from now on til forever. 'Kay? Yeah, deal

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

.....

Flower was used as the only example not the benchmark. He is probably one of the best footballers I have seen play. When MFC last produced a star it was certainly of the highest calibre.

Well, Rhino [and Shtack] height certainly IS the issue. Melbourne's rucks are undersized against many opponents. And make no mistake--the publicity was to the effect that Meesen was being recruited to cure this problem.

You will imagine therefore our bemused surprise when in the pre-season game we lost by a huge margin, Meesen did not contest a single ball-up. Played much of the time on the wing!

And we happily accept that this fellow has a 3 year contract!!!!We would have done better to cut our losses. And yes--if making the finals`this year was a priority, giving Peter Street a 1 year contract [as Brisbane were happy to do]would have made sense. As we are a $1.85 favourite for the spoon, it wouldn't have.

Wrong. Height is not the issue and Peter Street is proof of that. Peter Street is an ungainly two club player who could not cut it ar AFL level. And you think getting Peter Street would be important to making the finals this year give me a break. Given Brisbane have Charman and Leuenberger I doubt whether Peter Street was critrical to their plans.

There is more to ruckwork than just the centre bounce tap. Its important but the increasing speed of the game and the growing importance of possession of the ball and proper disposal of it means that the tall immobile dinosaur with questionable skills are finished in the game. Read Peter Street.

It might have slipped your attention that when we last played Freo at the MCG, Jamar 198cm nullified Sandilands at the centre bounce. Sandilands normally gets 40 to 45 hit outs a game but Jamar jumped into him at the centre bounce and prevented Sandlilands from having any impact on the game. And once Sandilands has no impact in the centre his lack of mobility around the ground stifles his game.

Meesen was recruited to address our rucking problems in general not the lack of height (your fixation). I completely agree with you that Meesen has been very poor in 2008 and is coming off a low base of performance to improve in 2009. However, MFC gave up a 3rd round pick with some expectation that Meesen was raw, requiring development and I doubt whether his contract is getting big dollars. Meesen definitely needs to improve his ruckwork. If he can then his mobility and fitness could be valuable to us. There is a school of thought that given MFC's difficulty in recruiting players that MFC may not have secured him with a 2 year contract. Possibly. I am not happy with the 3 year contract but I would be significantly disappointed if we mistakenly based our ruck needs on Peter Street.

BTW, I did not see that Geelong pre season game. But could it have been a coaching direction for Meesen to not be in the ruck that day and to play a follower role on the centre wing? Or are you saying that you knew what the coaching direction was to Meesen and that he deliberately disobeyed that instruction?

and congratulations to you for the third time being unable to backup any of your claims or counter any arguments. I'll just remember the NQR tag you have put on those 6 players from now on til forever. 'Kay? Yeah, deal

Shhtack, I could post them 100 times and you still would not have a clue what they were. Its no wonder you will remember the NQR tag. Sheesh

[old55 23,687]

We've been short on midfield class but hopefully we've picked some up recently with Morton, Grimes, Blease, Strauss, maybe Bennell - who knows. We need a bit more coming thru and some early picks next year too would be nice. Together with McLean who is class if he can get fit and some of the decent players we have like Jones, Moloney and Petterd hopefully we have the makings of a strong midfield. Heaven help us if we don't because it's going to be a long tough period thru the GC draft concession years. I think the sentiments in the thread title are close to the mark.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

Look at other clubs recently.....

Hawthorn have Hodge, Franklin

The above players have been consistent and often brilliant standout players for the side in theri positions that have changed and won matches by their superior performance.

MFC have had good players some very good but the only player I can put in that company is Flower. We have not had anyone close to his calibre and performance since his retirement.

Rhino I am amazed that you class Hodge as elite but neither Lyon nor to a lesser extent Stynes.

[Guest JACKtheRIPPER]

neitzs was a elite player, if he played in forward line his whole career he would have kicked 800 goals, he was a champion.

[Guest JACKtheRIPPER]

Gary Lyon was a wonderful player for the Club but not elite. Injuries may have robbed him of many games in 1995 onwards but despite his talent in other areas was not good overhead. He is close but not there IMO.

Post 1987 only the Ox (pre ACL problems), Jako (attitude and fitness) and Wiz (attitude, consistency, maturity and other issues) had the potential to be so but never took the steps.

your a harsh critic, lyon was more than wonderful, if we had 4 more of him in the last 20yrs we would have 14 afl cups, what is your criteria for a champion player.

[Guest JACKtheRIPPER]

rhino, i will remember not to try anything to sharp for you next time.

[stueyspencer no12 73]

Flower was used as the only example not the benchmark. He is probably one of the best footballers I have seen play. When MFC last produced a star it was certainly of the highest calibre.

Wrong. Height is not the issue and Peter Street is proof of that. Peter Street is an ungainly two club player who could not cut it ar AFL level. And you think getting Peter Street would be important to making the finals this year give me a break. Given Brisbane have Charman and Leuenberger I doubt whether Peter Street was critrical to their plans.

There is more to ruckwork than just the centre bounce tap. Its important but the increasing speed of the game and the growing importance of possession of the ball and proper disposal of it means that the tall immobile dinosaur with questionable skills are finished in the game. Read Peter Street.

It might have slipped your attention that when we last played Freo at the MCG, Jamar 198cm nullified Sandilands at the centre bounce. Sandilands normally gets 40 to 45 hit outs a game but Jamar jumped into him at the centre bounce and prevented Sandlilands from having any impact on the game. And once Sandilands has no impact in the centre his lack of mobility around the ground stifles his game.

Meesen was recruited to address our rucking problems in general not the lack of height (your fixation). I completely agree with you that Meesen has been very poor in 2008 and is coming off a low base of performance to improve in 2009. However, MFC gave up a 3rd round pick with some expectation that Meesen was raw, requiring development and I doubt whether his contract is getting big dollars. Meesen definitely needs to improve his ruckwork. If he can then his mobility and fitness could be valuable to us. There is a school of thought that given MFC's difficulty in recruiting players that MFC may not have secured him with a 2 year contract. Possibly. I am not happy with the 3 year contract but I would be significantly disappointed if we mistakenly based our ruck needs on Peter Street.

BTW, I did not see that Geelong pre season game. But could it have been a coaching direction for Meesen to not be in the ruck that day and to play a follower role on the centre wing? Or are you saying that you knew what the coaching direction was to Meesen and that he deliberately disobeyed that instruction?

Shhtack, I could post them 100 times and you still would not have a clue what they were. Its no wonder you will remember the NQR tag. Sheesh

Well, you're quite right about Jamar's game v Sandilands!I guess what concerns me is 'what happens if Jamar and Paul Johnson are injured?"In fairness to Meesen, he moved quite well that awful day, and from memory kicked a nice goal, but he didn't get the ball much!

And of course I don't know the instructions from the coach that day and you demean yourself by being offensive to other Melbourne supporters as often as you are. If being offensive repeatedly gives you your highs I suggest you seek help!

As to Street, without question he was offered a contract by Brisbane but he refused to leave Vic for family reasons. I again point out that having regard to the present circs of the MFC, I would NOT have favoured offering Street a contract

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Well, you're quite right about Jamar's game v Sandilands!I guess what concerns me is 'what happens if Jamar and Paul Johnson are injured?"In fairness to Meesen, he moved quite well that awful day, and from memory kicked a nice goal, but he didn't get the ball much!

Our ruck stocks are limited even when Jamar and PJ are there. And I share your concern if either is injured. I have been critical of Meesen last year (and for good reason - he was at times -way out of his depth) but I am prepared to see if he shows something this year. If not, we should look to pay him out at years end and look at other solutions (Peter Street would not be one of them). I hope Spencer comes on.

[Freak 100]

at the end of the day the 2 best teams in the comp have the 2 worst ruckmen in the comp. what does that say about the importance of ruckmen? Hawthorn have Renouf, Taylor etc and Geelong have Blake (Ottens plays mostly up forward)

[Eastie Boyz 0]

Who has 2 better ruckman than them?

Most teams have the starting ruckman ala Cox, Hille and then the back-up ala Seaby, Kepler Bradley.

If no one thought they were important then they wouldn't exist anymore.

[Guest Schtacker]

your a harsh critic, lyon was more than wonderful, if we had 4 more of him in the last 20yrs we would have 14 afl cups, what is your criteria for a champion player.

he already stated you have to be in the top10 of the league, or a 1-in-70 type player. So it excudes a whole heap of really good footballers

that's what makes his claims so comically idiotic

[Guest Schtacker]

Shhtack, I could post them 100 times and you still would not have a clue what they were. Its no wonder you will remember the NQR tag. Sheesh

Jones, Davey, Sylvia, Dunn, Buckley and Moloney

All hacks forever in the midfield according to Rhino

[Guest JACKtheRIPPER]

he already stated you have to be in the top10 of the league, or a 1-in-70 type player. So it excudes a whole heap of really good footballers

that's what makes his claims so comically idiotic

agreed hes got no idea.

[Eastie Boyz 0]

Jones, Davey, Sylvia, Dunn, Buckley and Moloney

All hacks forever in the midfield according to Rhino

Not at all.

He's stating none are elite players. Which is completely true.

[45HG 1,559]

Though I'm unsure what "elite" exactly is and how to categorise players as such (therefore which players would actually fit) I'd have to agree these guys aren't elite.

Davey flirted with the proposition, but IMO his move to the midfield has put a stop to that, Sylvia flirts with thinking of himself as elite and Jones is a long way from the prospect of being considered elite, but does have time on his side and a lot of players around him to improve

[Guest Schtacker]

Not at all.

He's stating none are elite players. Which is completely true.

excuse me?

"Half of the 20 you list are NQR, mediocre or pedestrian."

"Why bother saying blokes are NQR but refusing to name them?"

"Take out McLean and those players who have had less than 3 years or more on the list"

Look at my list of players. If you are going to stick your nose in, get it right FFS

[H_T 3,049]

Gary Lyon was a wonderful player for the Club but not elite. Injuries may have robbed him of many games in 1995 onwards but despite his talent in other areas was not good overhead. He is close but not there IMO.

Post 1987 only the Ox (pre ACL problems), Jako (attitude and fitness) and Wiz (attitude, consistency, maturity and other issues) had the potential to be so but never took the steps.

RR.

Despite Lyon's injury setbacks late in his career and his broken leg in 1987,Rd 22. Lyon was a very,very classy player who booted 426 goals and played in numerous positions for the mfc. Named on the Half Forward Flank in Mfc Team of the Century. How elite does elite have to be RR? Where is the fine line between the 'elite' and very good wonderful players over a long period of time? Is it simply premiership medallions that help distinguish between the two? Or is it just your opinion?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

excuse me?

"Half of the 20 you list are NQR, mediocre or pedestrian."

"Why bother saying blokes are NQR but refusing to name them?"

"Take out McLean and those players who have had less than 3 years or more on the list"

Look at my list of players. If you are going to stick your nose in, get it right FFS

He has got it way more right than you have.

We have a proven C grade midfield that has been consistently and systematically flogged week in week out for the past two years. We have senior players in the midfield who have defects in the game. We have young recruits that have potential that hopefully will need to step up. Both senior and junior players need to improve significantly over the next 2 to 3 years. And if we are to contest and win a premiership we need one or two players to become stars.

And for the record....just for you Shhtack since you cant work it out yourself.

Before your wires cross I am only going to state IMO why they are NQR. They may have other skills but I am not putting those in. Note: I have not referred to them as "crap" or "hacks". That's your puerile melodrama smothering any inate common sense . I am just recognising where they're at and what their deficiencies are. "

Jones - Kicking, Disposal skills under pressure. I actually like Jones and believe he can improve.

Davey - Lack of physical presence to win contested possessions, limited tank and flaky attitude when provoked, oppositions patently aware of pace and develop game play to mitigate it. Prefer up forward.

Sylvia - Fitness concerns, focus on making the tackle not winning the contest, limited tank, lack of pace and decision making.

Dunn - Question about ability to win the ball on own merit. Other than tagging yet to establish any credible midfield credentials.

Buckley - Decision Making, Disposal skills.

Moloney - Fitness, Decision making, lack of pace, poor defensive skills

Many of the above will need to improve their standard if they are to survive at MFC (if we want to be a better and more competitive) particularly if the younger brigade develop to be better footballers than them.

At this point we lack the quality of players that we will consistently allow us to win midfield contests. Compare our midfield to the top two teams and work it out.

And BTW, well done on the repeated quotes in your post. You can train a monkey to do that. Its a pity its a banana thats been used to work out what they mean.

And a little tip...My response to your plucked measure of 1 in 70 is that elite footballers are rare commodities in AFL football and your measure is only an indication of how many there are. Only a pedantic peanut would take it so literally as you have done. At least you have fooled the learned and wily Jack the Ripper.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

RR.

Despite Lyon's injury setbacks late in his career and his broken leg in 1987,Rd 22. Lyon was a very,very classy player who booted 426 goals and played in numerous positions for the mfc.

Agree. His last five years with back and related injuries cruelled the best years of his career.

Named on the Half Forward Flank in Mfc Team of the Century. How elite does elite have to be RR?

Lyon was one of the best post 1964 players MFC produced. IMO, Flower, Fowler, Hardeman, Wells, Lyon, Alan Johnson, David Neitz are in the top echelon. Flower is the only elite player. A couple of others have gone close.

For the record, while we have some great players pre 1964 and they make up the bulk of the MFC ToC, the paucity of success meant that there were few post 1964 players who measured up. Full credit to Lyon for making the side.

Where is the fine line between the 'elite' and very good wonderful players over a long period of time? Is it simply premiership medallions that help distinguish between the two? Or is it just your opinion?

Its just an opinion. What I consider are musts for being elite are:

1. Superior skills/talent in the role they play compared to the rest of the competition

2. Peerless and consistent performance and use of those talents to win/influence football games over many years.

3. Recognised by other Clubs and public as such in 1 and 2 and being able to produce despite attempted negation by opposition.

In summary, I think they are the best at what they do and they do it consistently and for many years.

Having one or two or more of such players does not walk hand in hand with premiership success. However, number of premiership medals is an indicator (to be considered with other factors) and not a determinant. Martin Pike won 4 premiership medals but certainly not elite though a capable player.

[Guest JACKtheRIPPER]

He has got it way more right than you have.

We have a proven C grade midfield that has been consistently and systematically flogged week in week out for the past two years. We have senior players in the midfield who have defects in the game. We have young recruits that have potential that hopefully will need to step up. Both senior and junior players need to improve significantly over the next 2 to 3 years. And if we are to contest and win a premiership we need one or two players to become stars.

And for the record....just for you Shhtack since you cant work it out yourself.

Before your wires cross I am only going to state IMO why they are NQR. They may have other skills but I am not putting those in. Note: I have not referred to them as "crap" or "hacks". That's your puerile melodrama smothering any inate common sense . I am just recognising where they're at and what their deficiencies are. "

Jones - Kicking, Disposal skills under pressure. I actually like Jones and believe he can improve.

Davey - Lack of physical presence to win contested possessions, limited tank and flaky attitude when provoked, oppositions patently aware of pace and develop game play to mitigate it. Prefer up forward.

Sylvia - Fitness concerns, focus on making the tackle not winning the contest, limited tank, lack of pace and decision making.

Dunn - Question about ability to win the ball on own merit. Other than tagging yet to establish any credible midfield credentials.

Buckley - Decision Making, Disposal skills.

Moloney - Fitness, Decision making, lack of pace, poor defensive skills

Many of the above will need to improve their standard if they are to survive at MFC (if we want to be a better and more competitive) particularly if the younger brigade develop to be better footballers than them.

At this point we lack the quality of players that we will consistently allow us to win midfield contests. Compare our midfield to the top two teams and work it out.

And BTW, well done on the repeated quotes in your post. You can train a monkey to do that. Its a pity its a banana thats been used to work out what they mean.

And a little tip...My response to your plucked measure of 1 in 70 is that elite footballers are rare commodities in AFL football and your measure is only an indication of how many there are. Only a pedantic peanut would take it so literally as you have done. At least you have fooled the learned and wily Jack the Ripper.

your a cheeky old bugger rhino, i like it.

[Guest Schtacker]

firstly, thank you for actually typing something

"I have not referred to them as "crap" or "hacks". That's your puerile melodrama smothering any inate common sense ."

"NQR, mediocre or pedestrian" was your actual statement, establishing the implication that these blokes cannot be part of an a-grade midfield... splitting hairs but this is the argument. Your assessment of these players is fairly accurate, nonetheless all 6 of them have proven themselves in at least some way, and have more scope for improvement:

Jones is an absolute gun and should have won the B+F in 07. He will just keep getting better with more support around him and an excellent role model in Scott West. A true pack beaver. I am staggered by how underrated he is by our own supporters.

Sylvia we have all seen flashes of brilliance and now seems injury free. The hard edge to his game is an absolute asset. We haven't seen his best by a mile IMO

Davey is a star, one of our only true game breakers in recent years, he is known to have been carrying injury for the last couple of years.

Buckley has a quality that most don't, but agree has some big deficincies also.

Dunn i'm not so sure on - but if there is a spot for a tagger he has proven he could be that man

Moloney just cannot be assessed. He has had several years of his career written off. Remember his first year with us he finished 4th in the B+F and, like Col, seems to be fit at last (touch wood) He is also in the leadership group despite doing bugger all on the field which to me speaks volumes about his status at the club.

My original point was that the best 10-odd (the ones who live up to their potential) of the 20-odd actually make it on the field. I'll pick them and imagine them at their peak and its a very solid midfield. Of course a bunch of them haven't done anything yet but it is handy that they are a bunch taken from high picks.

McLean Jones Morton Davey, for mine are all worthy midfielders already

Sylvia, Moloney maybe, less likely Buckley and Dunn

Grimes Blease Strauss (on reputation alone of course) Watts???

The rest, who knows, but the point is there are many of them (Bail,Jetta,Bennell + Valenti,Petterd,Bartram,Maric) with only the best few getting in, so logic dictates they should be pretty good

Plus we are pretty much a monty for another gun from the next draft, at the least it will be pick 5-ish (maybe not a midfielder though) could well be the best mid available. IMO high-pick players are becoming more and more likely to translate that ability to the big league (for a whole lot of reasons) there is still no gaurantee, but gee if you get someone in the top 5 you're very very likely to have an at least solid player these days. After this year we will have about 12 midfielders taken in the top 21 picks and I really can't see that going wrong.

To me it all adds up to likely solid MF, that's all

Mate I asked you if you are referring top a top-10-in-the-league type player and you confirmed it - my point was that we have had a host of players who may not have been top 10 but top 20 or 30 (see Neitz, White, Yze, Johnstone, Bruce even Bruce and McDonald)... we haven't had a Cousins, Buckley, Hird or Riccuito but they are just 4 names from a decade of thousands of players. So, I reject your premise that we cannot produce good players. Again I will ask, given the world's largest broom has gone through the club, what the relevance of this history is anyway? It has zero bearing on what the current crop will achieve.

"Many of the above will need to improve their standard if they are to survive at MFC (if we want to be a better and more competitive) particularly if the younger brigade develop to be better footballers than them. "

That is exactly my point - you have a quantity of players then naturally there is a type of competition where only quality output will get you a game

We are really arguing about nothing, just makes me wonder how good our stocks have to be for our supporter base to have some confidence in the side.

Anyway... I just can't wait til we actually see these blokes running around again

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Flower was used as the only example not the benchmark. He is probably one of the best footballers I have seen play. When MFC last produced a star it was certainly of the highest calibre.

Mmm. If only there was more footage. I'm too young to have seen him with my own eyes. This is one of the BIG gripes I have with MFC and the AFL. So many young RFC fans know about their heyday... likewise The Saints fans with Baldock... Players from other eras are still talked about by young fans as their "oldies" pass on the knowledge... and yet with us, hardly any kids know as much about Robbie as they should. Myself included. The closest we have is when a 70 yr old former player tries to belt the snot out of some punk, and even then it has nothing to do with Melbourne.

at the end of the day the 2 best teams in the comp have the 2 worst ruckmen in the comp. what does that say about the importance of ruckmen? Hawthorn have Renouf, Taylor etc and Geelong have Blake (Ottens plays mostly up forward)

Which is why I was so surprised to see you get behind young Naitanui so fervently. Unless you considered him more of a KP prospect? IMO he could be quite good at either role, but dominate in neither... e.g. if he's a gun ruckman who drifts forward then how much effect will he really make on the game? Likewise if he turns out to be more of a KP forward, do you REALLY think he'll end up being up there with the best KP players going around? With that kick?

Not trying to dig up old bones...

[Guest JACKtheRIPPER]

Mmm. If only there was more footage. I'm too young to have seen him with my own eyes. This is one of the BIG gripes I have with MFC and the AFL. So many young RFC fans know about their heyday... likewise The Saints fans with Baldock... Players from other eras are still talked about by young fans as their "oldies" pass on the knowledge... and yet with us, hardly any kids know as much about Robbie as they should. Myself included. The closest we have is when a 70 yr old former player tries to belt the snot out of some punk, and even then it has nothing to do with Melbourne.

Which is why I was so surprised to see you get behind young Naitanui so fervently. Unless you considered him more of a KP prospect? IMO he could be quite good at either role, but dominate in neither... e.g. if he's a gun ruckman who drifts forward then how much effect will he really make on the game? Likewise if he turns out to be more of a KP forward, do you REALLY think he'll end up being up there with the best KP players going around? With that kick?

Not trying to dig up old bones...

dappa robbie was the best, my dad took me to 87prelim i was 14yrs old and i left in tears,he was a champion.