wow, dappa. gotta respect that post

Why? Cos someone sees your side of the story? Or because a demonland poster has the balls to change his mind for once?

Why? Cos someone sees your side of the story? Or because a demonland poster has the balls to change his mind for once?

I change my mind all the freakin' time, that's probably why I read more than post. My opinions never seem to be rock solid for long.

the latter. everyone agrees with me afterall anyway. My opinion is just 2 to 3 seasons before everyone elses. I was the first to highlight Jones' poor kicking, as well as Bate's and also Bell's lack of awareness. Everyone disagreed. 2 years later, everyone is complaining about these facets of their game..quite annoying actually.

the latter. everyone agrees with me afterall anyway. My opinion is just 2 to 3 seasons before everyone elses. I was the first to highlight Jones' poor kicking, as well as Bate's and also Bell's lack of awareness. Everyone disagreed. 2 years later, everyone is complaining about these facets of their game..quite annoying actually.

Freak, I love your work some of the time, but you are VERY full of [censored] me old matey. Jones' kick was a problem when he was recruited. Bate's awareness issues aren't crippling, and as for Bell's footy brain... it's always been off on holiday, how could you claim to have been the FIRST to bring it up?

The difference between you and everyone else is you [censored] about the team first. Just because the rest of us like to be positive from the outset doesn't make you any more right about these players.

And for the record, I think given his work ethic, his age, and the fact he's had huge responsibility from very early on, even to the point of getting tagged, Jones will find a place among the best midfielders going around in his future. As soon as his body matures and becomes the one that does the bruising, instead of getting bruised, no-one will care about his so-so kicking any more than they did Harvey's. Bate's a key position oddity given he's neither a KP player or midfieder. He's got enough runs on the board to be rated higher than he is by the masses, but as per usual, people only rate him as good as his last few games, which weren't too flash. And as for Bell... do you really think you were the first to claim he was no good? Seriously?

MANY of the best players going around had glaring holes in their games, and still do... But once you give them team-mates who can compliment those weaknesses, they come on and in some cases win flags. Hodge and Franklin were both given a hard time in their late teens and early twenties.

Anyhoo... Out of interest, going along the general theme of this thread, are you positive about our future? Do you think we'll climb the ladder with the current list? Or with SOME of the current list? Or do you believe we still haven't recruited the core that will be the premiership threat of the future for us?

I think there's room in our future best 22 for Jones and Bate. In fact I reckon they'll make up an integral part. I don't believe either are stars, but both could very well be players as important to a strong side as... say... Hayes to the Saints, Birchall to the Hawks... Not the players people write about, but the players without whom things seem to unravel very quickly. As for Bell, he's about as glamorous as a bin-liner at the moment... but I'm not jumping on the "delist him" bandwagon. He's played some sensational games for us, and within two years ago, was considered one of our only promising young players. I agree wholeheartedly that he's limited, which is why I'd advocate a trade, but people do carry on a lot more about him than they should.

James Strauss will be our Lindsay Gilbee/ Andrew Mackie/ Grant Birchall.

Freak, I love your work some of the time, but you are VERY full of [censored] me old matey. Jones' kick was a problem when he was recruited. Bate's awareness issues aren't crippling, and as for Bell's footy brain... it's always been off on holiday, how could you claim to have been the FIRST to bring it up?

The difference between you and everyone else is you [censored] about the team first. Just because the rest of us like to be positive from the outset doesn't make you any more right about these players.

And for the record, I think given his work ethic, his age, and the fact he's had huge responsibility from very early on, even to the point of getting tagged, Jones will find a place among the best midfielders going around in his future. As soon as his body matures and becomes the one that does the bruising, instead of getting bruised, no-one will care about his so-so kicking any more than they did Harvey's. Bate's a key position oddity given he's neither a KP player or midfieder. He's got enough runs on the board to be rated higher than he is by the masses, but as per usual, people only rate him as good as his last few games, which weren't too flash. And as for Bell... do you really think you were the first to claim he was no good? Seriously?

MANY of the best players going around had glaring holes in their games, and still do... But once you give them team-mates who can compliment those weaknesses, they come on and in some cases win flags. Hodge and Franklin were both given a hard time in their late teens and early twenties.

Anyhoo... Out of interest, going along the general theme of this thread, are you positive about our future? Do you think we'll climb the ladder with the current list? Or with SOME of the current list? Or do you believe we still haven't recruited the core that will be the premiership threat of the future for us?

I think there's room in our future best 22 for Jones and Bate. In fact I reckon they'll make up an integral part. I don't believe either are stars, but both could very well be players as important to a strong side as... say... Hayes to the Saints, Birchall to the Hawks... Not the players people write about, but the players without whom things seem to unravel very quickly. As for Bell, he's about as glamorous as a bin-liner at the moment... but I'm not jumping on the "delist him" bandwagon. He's played some sensational games for us, and within two years ago, was considered one of our only promising young players. I agree wholeheartedly that he's limited, which is why I'd advocate a trade, but people do carry on a lot more about him than they should.

Yeh maybe I'm a bit harsh on Bate and jones...i just haven't seen their kicking skills improve at all since being drafted. And yeh, I do believe that I was the first to label Bell a dud. But anyway, back on topic I think that we are still another year of good draft picks away from having a chance of a good rise up the ladder. But the rise will come from Petterd, Watts, Strauss, Blease, Buckley, Morton, Martin, Wonaeamirri, Dunn and Maric in my opinion. Jones and Bate have a lot to work on. jones' kicking and 'trying to do too much' syndrome and bate's fumbling efforts (when the ball is at ground level) and pathetic turning circle, not to mention kicking need to be fixed.

the latter. everyone agrees with me afterall anyway. My opinion is just 2 to 3 seasons before everyone elses. I was the first to highlight Jones' poor kicking, as well as Bate's and also Bell's lack of awareness. Everyone disagreed. 2 years later, everyone is complaining about these facets of their game..quite annoying actually

And yeh, I do believe that I was the first to label Bell a dud.

yeah yeah freak your the first for everything especially pumping up your own tyres .....

Yeh maybe I'm a bit harsh on Bate and jones...i just haven't seen their kicking skills improve at all since being drafted. And yeh, I do believe that I was the first to label Bell a dud. But anyway, back on topic I think that we are still another year of good draft picks away from having a chance of a good rise up the ladder. But the rise will come from Petterd, Watts, Strauss, Blease, Buckley, Morton, Martin, Wonaeamirri, Dunn and Maric in my opinion. Jones and Bate have a lot to work on. jones' kicking and 'trying to do too much' syndrome and bate's fumbling efforts (when the ball is at ground level) and pathetic turning circle, not to mention kicking need to be fixed.

My God, this is the silly season. Even Freak is doing a semi-about-face...

I definitely think Jones and Bate are still looking the goods, as long as they work on their games. Like you say, they "have work to do." But then, who doesn't?

I, like you, think we will have another year of juicy picks... and then in 2010 we may lift to get CLOSE to the 8. Which is tantamount to saying we'll have something like pick 6-8 which, if we were to get a Vickery/Hurley, would only make us look even MORE formidable on paper.

As for your list of big names... I reckon:

Petterd, Watts, Strauss, Morton, Maric, Bate, Jones, Davey, Garland, PJ, McLean, Sylvia, Rivers... are the names that will make up a core.

You had:

Blease: I worry about purely outside mids, and from what I've seen that's what he is. You may ask why I put Strauss above him, and it's to do with the fact that I see Strauss running through the guts a bit, and his field kicking/handballs are supreme. It won't take much for me to get on Blease's bandwagon, but I want to see more than running down the wing unmarked...

Buckley: I reckon he'll float in and out of the core group. I like him, just not completely convinced just yet. Close though. Kick is a worry. I wouldn't want to see him become the next Ward.

Martin: I need to see more. He seems to have a lot of good aspects, but if we're going to crack it over bad kicks, then this guy has to be one of the worst kicks on the list.

Wonna: I'm in the group that believe he might be a bit limited. I love him and all, but I don't think he'll scale the heights of a Didak, Davis or even Davey... I'm not entirely ironclad on this, but I'm leaning towards the glass half empty with this one.

Dunn: You are hugely positive on him, and I reckon, given his time, he's a bit late in his development. I'm not saying he WON'T make it, but to get stuck into Bate and NOT this guy is a bit rich IMO. If you're marking him on skill set alone, then yes, he is quite possibly in the top 10 at the club. But I worry that he's missing something else. If skill set was all that mattered, Newton would be in our top 5 just about. I want a player that plays well for 5-8 seasons, not one that alternates good seasons and bad seasons. If he became a McPhee type, that would be good. I hope he develops a bit of mongrel...

There's about 10-15 others that will drift in and out of our top 10, but those are my names for the most part. Add 3 or 4 or dare I say 5 good ones to that and we have a deep and talented list... and all we could wish for as a supporter group.

yep..peoples kicking actions dont change. just ask bate and jones

You make a lot of statements, some on the money others are way off.

Perhaps you should check Grimes kicking effectiveness from the Champs and TAC comps.

I, like you, think we will have another year of juicy picks... and then in 2010 we may lift to get CLOSE to the 8. Which is tantamount to saying we'll have something like pick 6-8 which, if we were to get a Vickery/Hurley, would only make us look even MORE formidable on paper.

In 2010 the ninth place finisher will get pick fourteen.

In 2010 the ninth place finisher will get pick fourteen.

Correct. Apologies. Disregard that...

Man. I'm in form eh?

My God, this is the silly season. Even Freak is doing a semi-about-face...

I definitely think Jones and Bate are still looking the goods, as long as they work on their games. Like you say, they "have work to do." But then, who doesn't?

I, like you, think we will have another year of juicy picks... and then in 2010 we may lift to get CLOSE to the 8. Which is tantamount to saying we'll have something like pick 6-8 which, if we were to get a Vickery/Hurley, would only make us look even MORE formidable on paper.

As for your list of big names... I reckon:

Petterd, Watts, Strauss, Morton, Maric, Bate, Jones, Davey, Garland, PJ, McLean, Sylvia, Rivers... are the names that will make up a core.

You had:

Blease: I worry about purely outside mids, and from what I've seen that's what he is. You may ask why I put Strauss above him, and it's to do with the fact that I see Strauss running through the guts a bit, and his field kicking/handballs are supreme. It won't take much for me to get on Blease's bandwagon, but I want to see more than running down the wing unmarked...

Buckley: I reckon he'll float in and out of the core group. I like him, just not completely convinced just yet. Close though. Kick is a worry. I wouldn't want to see him become the next Ward.

Martin: I need to see more. He seems to have a lot of good aspects, but if we're going to crack it over bad kicks, then this guy has to be one of the worst kicks on the list.

Wonna: I'm in the group that believe he might be a bit limited. I love him and all, but I don't think he'll scale the heights of a Didak, Davis or even Davey... I'm not entirely ironclad on this, but I'm leaning towards the glass half empty with this one.

Dunn: You are hugely positive on him, and I reckon, given his time, he's a bit late in his development. I'm not saying he WON'T make it, but to get stuck into Bate and NOT this guy is a bit rich IMO. If you're marking him on skill set alone, then yes, he is quite possibly in the top 10 at the club. But I worry that he's missing something else. If skill set was all that mattered, Newton would be in our top 5 just about. I want a player that plays well for 5-8 seasons, not one that alternates good seasons and bad seasons. If he became a McPhee type, that would be good. I hope he develops a bit of mongrel...

There's about 10-15 others that will drift in and out of our top 10, but those are my names for the most part. Add 3 or 4 or dare I say 5 good ones to that and we have a deep and talented list... and all we could wish for as a supporter group.

For starters, for the person that suggested I check Grimes' kicking efficiency at TAC level is silly. You only need to look at Cale Morton to see how disposals in a junior competition cannot be compared to when playing in the afl.

Now on to Dappa. The difference between Jones and Bate is that they have not shown much improvement in my opinion. Yes they both did well in the B+F 2 seasons ago but that was because we were pathetic that year and half of our list were out injured. ANd I worry over these 2 more simply because fixing someone's poor kicking is one of the hardest things to do. Look at Richo for Gods sake. he still can't hit the backside of a barn.

Now in response to the following:

Blease: you say that you are worried about him being a purely outside mid, yet you have Morton on your list who is the biggest outside mid that we have ever had. Dont throw around the word utility etc, he is a bloody midfielder. So you have contradicted yourself

Buckley: Cant really say much here. You compared him to Ward, who personally I always liked. He was the only one that ran the lines and had a crack in our backline. His kicking was good in my books. I think the same of Buckley, his kicking looks like Nathan Buckleys when compared to Jones. His technique is fine. Never quite understood the criticism that came to the likes of ward and now buckley.

Martin: Yes, his kicking needs improvement but most of his kicks occur in the backline where he is chipping it to a melbourne player in space, or giving off the handball to a runner. He is our most promising backman by far. For a key backman, or fullback he is near perfect i would think. Height, Weight and probably the fastest player over 6'4 in the comp. Has played basketball his whole life, so will naturally get better. He is 22. So the next 8 years we have a lock for a key back position.

Wonna: I agree to an extent with Wonaeamirri. I think he has limitations but at the end of the day, he is a great kick and runs to the right spots.

Dunn: The difference between Dunn and bate is that Dunn can kick. He is also a better tackler and would kick more goals if the coaching staff played him up forward like he should be. Unlike Bate who often runs underneath the ball Dunn has a natural leap at the footy and doesnt let it go over him. It's hard to comment on Dunn as he is being played out of position in my opinion.

Now on to Dappa. The difference between Jones and Bate is that they have not shown much improvement in my opinion. Yes they both did well in the B+F 2 seasons ago but that was because we were pathetic that year and half of our list were out injured. ANd I worry over these 2 more simply because fixing someone's poor kicking is one of the hardest things to do. Look at Richo for Gods sake. he still can't hit the backside of a barn.

Agreed on the kicking. I just reckon Bate has a good kick. 60 metres, kicks them straight at goal... his field kicking isn't that bad... it's just his ball-drop that's the issue. I dont have his effectiveness stats, but as a close observer and an enormous fan of his, I've never been worried about his kick. But that's just me.

Blease: you say that you are worried about him being a purely outside mid, yet you have Morton on your list who is the biggest outside mid that we have ever had. Dont throw around the word utility etc, he is a bloody midfielder. So you have contradicted yourself

Morton is 190cm plus, and I don't think he'll play midfield his whole career... Also I put Morton IN the list because he's a mid that's shown he's more than capable of averaging close to twenty touches a game. My issue with outside mids is that if they don't get the touches, they're dead space in the 22. As soon as Blease shows he can get 20+ more often than not, he's in with a rocket. Simple. And not contradictory as you claim.

Buckley: Cant really say much here. You compared him to Ward, who personally I always liked. He was the only one that ran the lines and had a crack in our backline. His kicking was good in my books. I think the same of Buckley, his kicking looks like Nathan Buckleys when compared to Jones. His technique is fine. Never quite understood the criticism that came to the likes of ward and now buckley.

Fair enough. Hope you're right.

Martin: Yes, his kicking needs improvement but most of his kicks occur in the backline where he is chipping it to a melbourne player in space, or giving off the handball to a runner. He is our most promising backman by far. For a key backman, or fullback he is near perfect i would think. Height, Weight and probably the fastest player over 6'4 in the comp. Has played basketball his whole life, so will naturally get better. He is 22. So the next 8 years we have a lock for a key back position.

So you'd put him in the Rivers mould? As in, a player who can defend but isn't a prodigious kick? I haven't watched Martin that closely, and I reckon there's WAY too much enthusiasm for the kid. Given a heap of responsibility, week in week out, I reckon he might not be as solid as people reckon. Again. Hope I'm wrong.

Wonna: I agree to an extent with Wonaeamirri. I think he has limitations but at the end of the day, he is a great kick and runs to the right spots.

Can't argue with those two points. Brian Taylor gave the world the Davis vs Wonna debate, which is ridiculous. They're just not similar players at all. If he was white, we wouldn't be having that discussion. My only reason for not putting him in that list is that I don't reckon he'd be a player opposition fans and teams would be scared of. But I agree wholeheartedly. He knows how to lead, how to contest, make space... He'll get his 15 touches and that's great.

Dunn: The difference between Dunn and bate is that Dunn can kick. He is also a better tackler and would kick more goals if the coaching staff played him up forward like he should be. Unlike Bate who often runs underneath the ball Dunn has a natural leap at the footy and doesnt let it go over him. It's hard to comment on Dunn as he is being played out of position in my opinion.

Youre a huge fan of Dunn's, and I think in time he'll take his place in the 22 as a genuine utility... as in, playing bloody everywhere. My issue is that he's tall, and as a KP forward he looked average at best. He doesn't like a contested mark... and so far has only had people talking about him as a tagger. Meanwhile Bate, even with his "bad" kick, dodgy turning circle, his apparently poor awareness, and his red hair has kicked bags of four goals. The reason Dunny hasn't been played forward is because he was taking up space and being more ineffective than Bate was at the same time.

For what it's worth though, I reckon this will be the year Dunny will prove you right, if he ever will. Bate had some dodgy games up forward, but could be shifted up the ground to get his numbers and earn his spot the next week. Dunn now has midfield chops, and hopefully that flexibility will give him the opportunity to come up to where Bate is now. Why do I not have him in the 22? Because he hasn't PROVEN he can do this. At the moment it's just a hope...

cool. i think that we've come to an understanding. obviously there is significant room for personal choices such as Dunn and martin but yeh I see Martin as a big bodied backman that will line up on the jono browns, fevs etc. I hope i'm right with DUnn like you said, but if he is played another year as a tagger then i dont see much improvement. The time when Dunn is played as a forward and doesn't succeed is the time when i get off his bandwagon. But his time in the forward line looked good in my opinion.

The time when Dunn is played as a forward and doesn't succeed is the time when i get off his bandwagon. But his time in the forward line looked good in my opinion.

I like Dunn too, but your a bit biased towards him freak. He was drafted as a forward, trained as a forward, has played as a forward, and he hasn't cut it.

We have been screaming out for KPP forwards and yet Dunn cant get a game there. Why? If it wasn't for his massive engine he probably wouldn't be getting a game as a tagger either.

As it is. He's doing a good job tagging. Will want to get some more possesions himself though. Hopefully he will still make advantage of his size.

Blease - I don't expect much in 09 due to his age, any good game time he gets is a bonus.

Strauss - He could be the story of the year. A silky finisher that we have been missing. Grimes, Buckley, Morton & Co to take the next step this year freeing up Jones/Maloney/Mclean and strauss to hopefully finish their good work. Lets cross our fingers

cool. i think that we've come to an understanding. obviously there is significant room for personal choices such as Dunn and martin but yeh I see Martin as a big bodied backman that will line up on the jono browns, fevs etc. I hope i'm right with DUnn like you said, but if he is played another year as a tagger then i dont see much improvement. The time when Dunn is played as a forward and doesn't succeed is the time when i get off his bandwagon. But his time in the forward line looked good in my opinion.

Yeah. I don't reckon we're that far off in how we sum up the team. The Martin one is a fascinating one, particularly the implications of his recruitment and his effectiveness as a player given the fact he was recruited at the age he's been recruited. If he works out, I dare say the club and other clubs will go down the path of recruiting mature rookie ruckmen more often... Then again, they probably said the same about Rix over at Saintsational.

I like Dunn too, but your a bit biased towards him freak. He was drafted as a forward, trained as a forward, has played as a forward, and he hasn't cut it.

We have been screaming out for KPP forwards and yet Dunn cant get a game there. Why? If it wasn't for his massive engine he probably wouldn't be getting a game as a tagger either.

They've always claimed he was recruited as a forward, but are you certain he was trained as one? I remember he played a lot out of the square at Sandy during the end of ND's reign, but he was likely trained in a whole lot of positions, as was Neale's wont at the time, in his endless hunt for "flexibility."

Dunn: The difference between Dunn and bate is that Dunn can kick. He is also a better tackler and would kick more goals if the coaching staff played him up forward like he should be. Unlike Bate who often runs underneath the ball Dunn has a natural leap at the footy and doesnt let it go over him. It's hard to comment on Dunn as he is being played out of position in my opinion.

They've always claimed he was recruited as a forward, but are you certain he was trained as one? I remember he played a lot out of the square at Sandy during the end of ND's reign, but he was likely trained in a whole lot of positions, as was Neale's wont at the time, in his endless hunt for "flexibility."

He started out as the third tall forward when he came on in 06. You have a point with the Danihers changing of position, unfortunatley he never had a knack for training talls. Dont get me wrong, I think Dunn had a good year. But I would be surprised if anyone wasn't disapointed that our round 1 KPP pick had 4 years development and turned out to be a tagger.

I know talls take longer to develop, but its been 4 years now. The time has come for Bate, Dunn and Newton all to stand up.

Dont get me wrong, I think Dunn had a good year. But I would be surprised if anyone wasn't disapointed that our round 1 KPP pick had 4 years development and turned out to be a tagger.

I know talls take longer to develop, but its been 4 years now.

It is indeed a disappointment that a Rd 1 pick does not become more than a tagger. Its better than not becoming an AFL footballer at all (eg some of the Class of 2003).

I would hardly class Dunn as a tall like I would rate a ruckman. He should be showing more for MFC. 2009 is the year he has to stand up.

The same goes for Bate as well.

Dunn: The difference between Dunn and bate is that Dunn can kick. He is also a better tackler and would kick more goals if the coaching staff played him up forward like he should be. Unlike Bate who often runs underneath the ball Dunn has a natural leap at the footy and doesnt let it go over him. It's hard to comment on Dunn as he is being played out of position in my opinion.

There is a perennial push by many to make Dunn a KPP. There is a major problem with this. From my observation Dunn is all at sea when the footy is in the air. His marking attempts are clumsy and ill-timed. I cannot recall Dunn taking one strong or contested mark. This is generally not something that can be fixed. Most of his goals early on where where kicked from receives or crumbs from around the edge of the arc if memory serves me correctly.

Natural KPPs have an ability to judge the ball in the air and courage to stand up straight in the contest. Dunn has not shown these abilities. He has reasonable pace and skills and good endurance. I think Dunn needs to find a niche, other than tagging to maintain his place in the 22.

It's quite frightening that Matthew Pavlich is only 191cm tall and Dunn is 192cm.

Pavlich plays an inch and a half taller than he actually is.

i didn't mean to imply that I wanted Dunn to be played as a key forward. I would like him to be played as a 3rd tall type, similar to Brad Fisher from Carlton who i think is a really good player.

Never quite understood the criticism that came to the likes of ward and now buckley.

you obviously just have a bias in favour of these players that causes you not to see the amount of disposal errors they make. Buckley is one of the worst of the last decade or so he is an absolute butcher. How this could even be up for debate is beyond me...

It's quite frightening that Matthew Pavlich is only 191cm tall and Dunn is 192cm.

Pavlich plays an inch and a half taller than he actually is.

He is also just a much, much better footballer which is more important than centimetres, contrary to what most believe

you obviously just have a bias in favour of these players that causes you not to see the amount of disposal errors they make. Buckley is one of the worst of the last decade or so he is an absolute butcher. How this could even be up for debate is beyond me...

i just don't see ur side of it. he has a booming kick on him and his technique is fine. Butchering it by my definition is where a player kicks it wayyyy left or way right or scrubs it along the ground. Buckley rarely does this, he just has a tendency to kick it too long and ignore better options.