Ok here's a question.......do you think that because we have Valenti on the rookie list we are more likely to go for....say...Rockliff for the PSD and Sibosido for the rookie pick and leave DeBore out of the equation?

Having a stab at it here. Shaun Hart. Brisbane.

Not bad, but for mine Hart was a far superior player than Valenti

OK then, who's the premeirship midfielder who most resembles (in ability and style of play) Valenti?

Sam Mitchell. Next question....

.....where do babies come from??

Not bad, but for mine Hart was a far superior player than Valenti

Which is what I added a moment ago in a edited version.

creative midfielders who lack pace

peter bell, sam mitchell, james bartel, greg williams, cameron ling, brock mclean, shaun hart etc. without trying too hard

I don't think the lack of pace is an issue if you allow the player to play his natural creative game.

creative midfielders who lack pace

peter bell, sam mitchell, james bartel, greg williams, cameron ling, brock mclean, shaun hart etc. without trying too hard

I don't think the lack of pace is an issue if you allow the player to play his natural creative game.

Exactly.

Sam Mitchell. Next question....

You come on here, accuse me of ignorance and then peddle this rubbish. Sam Mitchell, please!!

creative midfielders who lack pace

peter bell, sam mitchell, james bartel, greg williams, cameron ling, brock mclean, shaun hart etc. without trying too hard

I don't think the lack of pace is an issue if you allow the player to play his natural creative game.

Are you putting Shane Valenti in the same bracket as these guys?? This topic's just got really silly

Exactly.

Exactly what Mo? Shane Valenti and Greg Williams. I don't think so

creative midfielders who lack pace

peter bell, sam mitchell, james bartel, greg williams, cameron ling, brock mclean, shaun hart etc. without trying too hard

I don't think the lack of pace is an issue if you allow the player to play his natural creative game.

Exactly.

Exactly what Mo? Shane Valenti and Greg Williams. I don't think so

Roost It. I think Mo's "Exactly" may be in reference to the last sentence of dandeeman's post. I'm sure Mo will confirm it otherwise.

Roost It. I think Mo's "Exactly" may be in reference to the last sentence of dandeeman's post. I'm sure Mo will confirm it otherwise.

Correct.

Are you putting Shane Valenti in the same bracket as these guys?? This topic's just got really silly

Roost it

Read the post carefully and my previous post. No I am not putting Valenti in the same bracket as these guys,how the hell could you they have all established senior footy careers. My point is a lack of pace does not preclude a player from being a creative senior midfielder. There is no way that you can judge valenti either way from his handful of senior games.

And FWIW many of those players had to work hard to cement a regular spot in the ones.

Roost it

Read the post carefully and my previous post. No I am not putting Valenti in the same bracket as these guys,how the hell could you they have all established senior footy careers. My point is a lack of pace does not preclude a player from being a creative senior midfielder. There is no way that you can judge valenti either way from his handful of senior games.

And FWIW many of those players had to work hard to cement a regular spot in the ones.

Valenti has more issues than just pace. You can add his height and his overall ability, neither of which is upto the top level standard of an AFL midfielder, except for in the worst club in the league with a host of injuries. Mo has diverted this to be just about his pace which the argument wasn't only about.

Correct.

Mo, back on topic sunshine. The players referred too made up for a lack of pace with real strengths in other areas, something Valenti hasn't and won't do. The fact is Mo he managed 9 games in the worst midfield in the league which carried a host of injuries. Do you seriously think any top 8 side would play this guy. By the way I have nothing personal against Valenti and admire his spirit but he just ain't good enough and he won't last beyond next year. Period.

I'd like to know why Mo all of the sudden went quiet on the topic he raised of his belief of Bailey's game plan which he says is "fraught with failure." In his response to Axis of Bobs post. Its on page 2 if anyone or Mo needs to re-cap. Better yet here it is in summary now on page 3 Mo : -

Looking at the way we played last year, and also by the way we have drafted both this year and last year, we are trying to play a fast paced and precise counterattacking game.

Mitchell does well in this sort of atmosphere because he is a wonderful clearance player with an average of 6.0 clearances per game. Valenti had 2.3 per game.

But if you have a look at the players surrounding Mitchell there is a fair bit of pace, with only Lewis being in the below average category for speed. We have McLean (easily our best midfielder), Jones, Junior and Moloney (who was just behind McLean for clearances per game last year).

So we probably don't need more of these types, but we need more quality in them. After this year it will probably be McLean, Jones and Moloney. If Valenti is going to break into the side then he will need to become a high clearance winner and displace one of those three players. Too many of these players will kill our counter attacking game. We're transitioning from a game style that required big bodies (like ND liked) to one that requires skill and pace. Valenti is not overly skillful and does not have a great deal of pace, the two prerequisites for our drafting so far.

I'm happy to have him on the rookie list. I'd rather use our PSD pick as effectively a rookie draft priority pick.

You're comparing the statistics of a club captain and an established star in Mitchell, with a 1st year player who's played 9 games.

I agree with everything else you've said, and it just reaffirms my belief that Bailey's game plan is fraught with failure. He basically needs to turnover our complete list, and hope like hell that we can acquire a truckload of elite, skillful, pacy midfielders and defenders through the draft. Good luck!!!!

A counter attacking gameplan is high risk imo.

I agree Axis. (In response to Axis' post)

(In response to Mo's post): -

OMG!

IMO a counter attacking gameplan with acquired elite pacy midfielders and defenders through turning over the list IS what is required to beat the likes of the Hawthorn's and the Geelong's in a Grand Final. If you intend to go down the path of the status quo and obtain rejects or 'used' players to plug gaps like the Picket's and Holland's of this world you may get to the finals occassionally but you'll never be a premiership side let alone see week 3 of the finals series. We need a huge dose or injection of quality players who will develop together. Morton, Grimes, Watts, Blease, Strauss, Martin, Garland are part of that developing group.

edit: FFS Premierships are won with counter attacking gameplans.

Are you putting Shane Valenti in the same bracket as these guys?? This topic's just got really silly

You ask for references and dandeeman gave a few players off the top of his head and all you can come up with is, that's just silly.

Of course Valenti's not in the same bracket as he's played 9 games while the others have finished their careers or already have had years in the system. It's a reference.

How would you have judged those players in their first year considering.

peter bell - Overlooked early in his career many times.

sam mitchell - Overlooked early in his career.

james bartel - Question marks were raised about Jimbob too about his lack of pace and only a wet specialist.

Nathan Foley - Overlooked early in his career for being short and slow.

Cameron Ling - was critised for being slow and fat. Kicked a behind 1 cm from goal.

Shaun Hart/Greg Williams - Unsure early status.

As dandeeman said. Do I think he is good enough? I like some of what I have seen and appreciate his endeavour but I need to see him next year to make a decision.

You ask for references and dandeeman gave a few players off the top of his head and all you can come up with is, that's just silly.

Of course Valenti's not in the same bracket as he's played 9 games while the others have finished their careers or already have had years in the system. It's a reference.

No I asked Mo for players of Valenti's standard who had played in a premeirship side in the last 10 years. This list doesn't answer that question and nor did Mo

Shaun Hart was a fringe player for a few seasons at Brisbane.

Greg Williams spent a fair bit of a season at the geelong 2s before going to sydney. There were serious question marks about his pace early on.

No I asked Mo for players of Valenti's standard who had played in a premeirship side in the last 10 years. This list doesn't answer that question and nor did Mo

Now thats a silly question. How can we possibly judge Valenti's standard on a handful of senior games?????

If you discarded every player who didn't quite cut the mustard after 9 games you wouldn't have anyone on your list.

Shaun Hart was a fringe player for a few seasons at Brisbane.

Greg Williams spent a fair bit of a season at the geelong 2s before going to sydney. There were serious question marks about his pace early on.

Hart was a fringe player who played 273 games including 3 premeirships. Next!!

Oh, Greg Williams, another premeirship player who was arguably the best in and under in the comp whilst at his best.

Your examples border, no they cross the border into complete stupidity

By the way my argument was with Mo, but he's hitailed it outa here

Now thats a silly question. How can we possibly judge Valenti's standard on a handful of senior games?????

If you discarded every player who didn't quite cut the mustard after 9 games you wouldn't have anyone on your list.

Listen carefully. My point to Mo was that Valenti won't remain on out list because in my opinion he's not good enough and never will be. To prove that to Mo I pointed out that no premeirship side of the last 10 years has had a midfielder of Valent's questionable ability. He failed to answer, except with Sam Mitchell. which is plain wrong.

Geez, I'm cranky today!

Hart was a fringe player who played 273 games including 3 premeirships. Next!!

Oh, Greg Williams, another premeirship player who was arguably the best in and under in the comp whilst at his best.

Your examples border, no they cross the border into complete stupidity

By the way my argument was with Mo, but he's hitailed it outa here

Shaun Hart was all that and he also struggled to get a game and when he did he was a bits player early. Greg Williams was let go by Geelong because of a lack of pace.

I think you have a bit of an issue with reading and comprehension. READ IT SLOWLY. It is therefore pointless to have a sensible debate. If you have an issue with any of the facts that I have stated please respond with evidence.

I think you will find that people are dropping off the debate for a good reason.

If you are challeging me to a battle of wits I never attack an unarmed man.

Dan out

Shaun Hart was all that and he also struggled to get a game and when he did he was a bits player early. Greg Williams was let go by Geelong because of a lack of pace.

I think you have a bit of an issue with reading and comprehension. READ IT SLOWLY. It is therefore pointless to have a sensible debate. If you have an issue with any of the facts that I have stated please respond with evidence.

I think you will find that people are dropping off the debate for a good reason.

If you are challeging me to a battle of wits I never attack an unarmed man.

Dan out

Dan my boy, my debate was never with you it was with Mo, your points were off that topic. Talking about Valenti's problems as just a lack of pace and therefore talking about players such as Shaun Hart and Greg Williams is pointless. It's like comparing apples and cheese.