Good post Phoenix and definitely worthy consideration.

ATM, where the game is going I think a top side needs a top quality midfield with a capable ruck division centred around a perfunctionary pairing that oscillate on/off the bench with the odd stint forward. Both Hawthorn and Geelong have that and they also have very strong midfields.

There are other things to be considered as well.

Collingwood got to two GF's without a ruckman's bootlace. They nearly won one but for a debatable goal umpiring decision. How important was a dominant ruckman?

Rucks do make a difference if you get dominated and the opposition gets sufficient taps to advantage. I think you can't afford weak rucks, but you don't need dominant rucks. IIRC in the close GF Keating had to ruck alone, admittedly against not much opposition, maybe there's a link there. IMO he deserved the NSM in 2003 and was a key difference, altho stoppage tactics were key also, he punched the ball into space clear of the Pies mids who were excellent in close - Lica was at his prime. That was the Pies key, their rucks we're weak but their contested ball winning close to the stoppage was excellent, in 2003 the Lions short-circuited this with Keating smashing the ball forward at every opportunity and Fraser couldn't stop him doing it.

BTW Spencer is getting talked up and he sounds like a better version of Jamar - perhaps like Keating - he doesn't sound like he'll make much impact around the ground. I'm OK with that but the enthusiasm for him seems a bit inconsistent with the "hitouts don't matter, it's around the ground impact" theory. Maybe a Jamar/PJ combo gives us maximum flexibilty and if Spencer is a better Jamar then hey!

"Secondary stoppage" maybe a new idea/term at centre bounces but the Swans have specialised in this for years at all other stoppages. If they can't win the clearance they force another stoppage until they do win - that's been their plan A.

Rucks do make a difference if you get dominated and the opposition gets sufficient taps to advantage. I think you can't afford weak rucks, but you don't need dominant rucks.

That's it in a nutshell IMO.

Hawthorn 2008? I don't really rate Brown, Taylor or Renouf.

All you really need is to be serviceable in the ruck, to counter any special rucking ability in your rucking oponent, and then become a damaging player around the ground i.e. ability to take marks and kick the ball accurately

I think you just discredited yourself there

Rucks do make a difference if you get dominated and the opposition gets sufficient taps to advantage. I think you can't afford weak rucks, but you don't need dominant rucks. IIRC in the close GF Keating had to ruck alone, admittedly against not much opposition, maybe there's a link there. IMO he deserved the NSM in 2003 and was a key difference, altho stoppage tactics were key also, he punched the ball into space clear of the Pies mids who were excellent in close - Lica was at his prime. That was the Pies key, their rucks we're weak but their contested ball winning close to the stoppage was excellent, in 2003 the Lions short-circuited this with Keating smashing the ball forward at every opportunity and Fraser couldn't stop him doing it.

BTW Spencer is getting talked up and he sounds like a better version of Jamar - perhaps like Keating - he doesn't sound like he'll make much impact around the ground. I'm OK with that but the enthusiasm for him seems a bit inconsistent with the "hitouts don't matter, it's around the ground impact" theory. Maybe a Jamar/PJ combo gives us maximum flexibilty and if Spencer is a better Jamar then hey!

"Secondary stoppage" maybe a new idea/term at centre bounces but the Swans have specialised in this for years at all other stoppages. If they can't win the clearance they force another stoppage until they do win - that's been their plan A.

Agree with that. Collingwood had very good inside mids (Licuria, Burns and O'Bree) but they didn't have the class or speed of Lapin, Voss, Akka and Power. Keating knocking it to advantage with long punches was very effective.

I'm excited about Spencer because I think he'll be a competitive big man who will cost us nothing. The excitement is his cost, not his ability and if he can do the negating job it means you don't have to trade or draft for that position in the near future so you can use those picks sorting out other issues with the list.

I think you just discredited yourself there

lol, Robbie Campbell and Campbell Brown, has always mixed me up for some reason. Don't really rate Campbell.

As usual Eastie, thanks for your interesting insight into the conversation....

No worries

Campbell and Taylor do the job (not 100% sure why they played Renouf in the Grand Final). I've never seen either of them really be 'beaten'

You've never seen it?

Or you never saw them beaten in 2008? I'd suggest the latter, and if it isn't, it's probably more to do with you not noticing them before this season

2008. I can vaguely recall them having some pretty average games in the years before that.

We have 19 players on our list who were 1st or 2nd round draft picks or equivalent (trades for *) and most of them are young and have plenty of scope for development and improvement.

Jones, McLean, Bate, Frawley, Morton, Johnson*, Sylvia, Dunn, Petterd, Grimes, Green, Maric, Bell, Moloney*, Rivers, Wheatley, Watts, Blease, Strauss

B: Petterd Frawley Wheatley

Strauss Rivers Grimes

C: Morton Moloney Blease

Johnson McLean Jones

F: Sylvia Watts Dunn

Green Bate Maric

I: Bell

I realise that's not a guarantee of quality but it's likely that most of them can play and we've got a few late and rookie pick players who are OK.

I think our list is starting to take some shape and there's plenty to look forward to and be optimistic about - with current stocks in 4-5 years we could have a 22 that has come thru together:

B: Frawley Garland Warnock

Rivers Martin Strauss

C: Morton Moloney Blease

Spencer Grimes McLean

F: Davey Watts Bate

Sylvia Newton Maric

I: Johnson Jones Petterd Dunn

One more cycle of early picks would be nice.

B: Frawley Garland Warnock

Rivers Martin Strauss

C: Morton Moloney Blease

Spencer Grimes McLean

F: Davey Watts Bate

Sylvia Newton Maric

I: Johnson Jones Petterd Dunn

One more cycle of early picks would be nice.

Looks pretty good to me, and we have Buckley, Bail, Bennell, Jetta, Bartram and Valenti as part of the mix to potentially replace which ever midfield/flanker types that don't make it... then there's Cheney/McNamara and the other rookies. I thibk there will be a spot for Ozzie.

The worries for me in that side are:

Spencer (but could be bettered by Jamar, Zomer, Meesen maybe even Martin)

Newton (I notice you have no Miller in there, could it be Jurrah? May well be the best Key Forward of the next draft)

Pretty hopeful with the rest despite 5 of them having hardly played or not at all

I really think its looking good

I think his side was an u/22, which explains leaving Miller out.

*edit* says in 4-5 years time. How old would Miller be then?

I think his side was an u/22, which explains leaving Miller out.

*edit* says in 4-5 years time. How old would Miller be then?

29.5 - 30.5 years old, still 'valid'. He's a month younger than Davey, who you will notice is in the side. It seems he simply does not see Miller in the side or he has forgotten him.

So, if you're being a smartass, again I will ask you to check your facts before typing

The fact that there's alternatives is even better - you can have Jamar for Spencer, Miller for Newton, Aussie for Maric, Bartram for Dunn and Buckley for Blease if you like, I generally picked the younger alternative or the earler drafted alternative in each case because there should be more scope for improvement.

29.5 - 30.5 years old, still 'valid'. He's a month younger than Davey, who you will notice is in the side. It seems he simply does not see Miller in the side or he has forgotten him.

So, if you're being a smartass, again I will ask you to check your facts before typing

Care to explain how I was being a smartass?

Care to explain how I was being a smartass?

sorry, thought you were. I did say IF

old55 so you don't rate Miller?

That's alright.

Thought you'd misread the post but it turns out I did

Hmm....

Paul Johnson is a quality player who can make a determined contribution around the ground. Not quite the 'extra midfielder' like Cox, but someone you'd be delighted to name as second ruckman - I'll keep on refering to him as our 'heavy utility' until it catches on, I swear.

Mark Jamar is an interesting one. In the weeks immediately after White's demotion his stats, not surprisingly, jumped in a big way. Still not a huge number of disposals, but he seems to be able to keep going in the ruck position all day - has the bulk to crash and crash and crash.

And we've all enjoyed his occassional launch into the air for a mark close to goal - is he can do that once or twice a game for a season (and put it through calmly), then that's a valuable asset.

On the 'neutralise' argument, it's interesting to note that Jamar lays a phenomenal number of tackles for a ruckman - easily the most of any current ruckman (or any ruckman I've heard of) at 3.6 per game, the same as Nathan Foley or Kane Cornes.

Seriously, one extra goalsquare mark per game and Jamar is a more than handy player.

I'd still like a third option - Jake Spencer, the Meese, even moving Stefan Martin to part-time ruck. Somebody. We'll see what happens.

Tall defenders good, small defenders question mark.

Inside midfield progress highly unpredictable due to returns from injuries, development of youth, and Scott West.

Outside midfield is hard to say, again due to youth. The area primarily recruited for in this draft just gone, and Morton looks the goods.

Small forwards (counting Wonaeamirri, Davey, Maric) looks great to me.

Tall forwards (counting Miller, Bate, Robertson, maybe Newton, plus eventually and hopefully Watts and Jurrah) is also hard to predict. Most of these seem servicable rather than excellent.

So all up, what with injury returns, youth, major changes to coaching staff, radically improved facilities and substanitally different pre-season training routines, the final summary of our list has to be -

#$%# knows.

old55 so you don't rate Miller?

I really like Miller but he's got his limitations. I think a club needs players like Miller and Bartram who give their all. Miller's not as good as Mooney (who I reckon is ordinary) but could be in the same ballpark and Mooney is a premiership KPF. Newton has the potential to be a superior player but he has a different set of limitations. Miiler has worked very hard and is probably approaching his peak - there's not much improvement there, the same can't be said of Newton, he's younger and was drafted (a little bit) earlier and they were the criteria I loosely used when there were multiple contenders - I'm looking for scope for improvement. Competitiveness can't be underestimated and Miller has that all over Newton - right now in the crunch of a GF like last year's I'd take Miller's approach over Newton's talent. It's a pity we can't fuse Miller's attitude onto Newton, it's not a new idea, we all thought that about Godders and Johnstone for instance. I expect Watts to make all our forwards much more effective players with the defensive attention he will draw away from them.

Hmm....

Paul Johnson is a quality player who can make a determined contribution around the ground. Not quite the 'extra midfielder' like Cox, but someone you'd be delighted to name as second ruckman - I'll keep on refering to him as our 'heavy utility' until it catches on, I swear.

Mark Jamar is an interesting one. In the weeks immediately after White's demotion his stats, not surprisingly, jumped in a big way. Still not a huge number of disposals, but he seems to be able to keep going in the ruck position all day - has the bulk to crash and crash and crash.

And we've all enjoyed his occassional launch into the air for a mark close to goal - is he can do that once or twice a game for a season (and put it through calmly), then that's a valuable asset.

On the 'neutralise' argument, it's interesting to note that Jamar lays a phenomenal number of tackles for a ruckman - easily the most of any current ruckman (or any ruckman I've heard of) at 3.6 per game, the same as Nathan Foley or Kane Cornes.

Seriously, one extra goalsquare mark per game and Jamar is a more than handy player.

I'd still like a third option - Jake Spencer, the Meese, even moving Stefan Martin to part-time ruck. Somebody. We'll see what happens.

Tall defenders good, small defenders question mark.

Inside midfield progress highly unpredictable due to returns from injuries, development of youth, and Scott West.

Outside midfield is hard to say, again due to youth. The area primarily recruited for in this draft just gone, and Morton looks the goods.

Small forwards (counting Wonaeamirri, Davey, Maric) looks great to me.

Tall forwards (counting Miller, Bate, Robertson, maybe Newton, plus eventually and hopefully Watts and Jurrah) is also hard to predict. Most of these seem servicable rather than excellent.

So all up, what with injury returns, youth, major changes to coaching staff, radically improved facilities and substanitally different pre-season training routines, the final summary of our list has to be -

#$%# knows.

Good post.

In theory Jamar should be capable of what someone like Ben Hudson does. Similar build and aggressive approach, Hudson just seems to be a bit more confident in his ability as an overally footballer and it shows in the way he plays.

I really like Miller but he's got his limitations. I think a club needs players like Miller and Bartram who give their all. Miller's not as good as Mooney (who I reckon is ordinary) but could be in the same ballpark and Mooney is a premiership KPF. Newton has the potential to be a superior player but he has a different set of limitations. Miiler has worked very hard and is probably approaching his peak - there's not much improvement there, the same can't be said of Newton, he's younger and was drafted (a little bit) earlier and they were the criteria I loosely used when there were multiple contenders - I'm looking for scope for improvement. Competitiveness can't be underestimated and Miller has that all over Newton - right now in the crunch of a GF like last year's I'd take Miller's approach over Newton's talent. It's a pity we can't fuse Miller's attitude onto Newton, it's not a new idea, we all thought that about Godders and Johnstone for instance. I expect Watts to make all our forwards much more effective players with the defensive attention he will draw away from them.

I can`t for the life of me understand how Newton can be thought of as having potential to be a superior player?? Maybe when our midfield can consistently hit him lace out every time he leads he may start to look like a player, but he certainly cares little about the ball when its not in his hands. We know he can mark and we know he can kick very well. So can 98% of the comp. Apart from 2 or 3 games of his short career he has been nothing but a disappointment. You are not the only poster that thinks he has talent so I`ll wait patiently for him to show us some of that potential that you and many others feel he is capable of in 2009

I can`t for the life of me understand how Newton can be thought of as having potential to be a superior player?? Maybe when our midfield can consistently hit him lace out every time he leads he may start to look like a player, but he certainly cares little about the ball when its not in his hands. We know he can mark and we know he can kick very well. So can 98% of the comp. Apart from 2 or 3 games of his short career he has been nothing but a disappointment. You are not the only poster that thinks he has talent so I`ll wait patiently for him to show us some of that potential that you and many others feel he is capable of in 2009

meh. richo cares little about the ball when its not in his hands. same with fevola. its an overrated quality.

And we've all enjoyed his occassional launch into the air for a mark close to goal - is he can do that once or twice a game for a season (and put it through calmly), then that's a valuable asset.

And not play on in the goal square, get tackled and miss the goal!

I can`t for the life of me understand how Newton can be thought of as having potential to be a superior player?? Maybe when our midfield can consistently hit him lace out every time he leads he may start to look like a player, but he certainly cares little about the ball when its not in his hands. We know he can mark and we know he can kick very well. So can 98% of the comp. Apart from 2 or 3 games of his short career he has been nothing but a disappointment. You are not the only poster that thinks he has talent so I`ll wait patiently for him to show us some of that potential that you and many others feel he is capable of in 2009

I think we're in agreement. Newton's problem is his attitude.

Not everyone in the league can mark and kick as well as Newton - Miller is a good example. I can't help you if you can't see that Newton's skills are superior to Miller's, but Miller's attitude is far superior to Newton's.

I wouldn't exactly call Newton a disappointment, he was drafted at 49 or so and that means he was speculative. It's disappointing that he hasn't been able to realise his talents but that was always the risk. Similarly with Miller drafted at 55, also speculative, but he's delivered on the speculation to play 100 AFL games, his great commitment overcoming his skill limitations. My main point is that it's WYSIWYG with Miller now and he's a good ordinary footballer, Newton could be more, but I agree that it's quite likely he wont even be that.

I reckon Newton's 'talent' is greatly overrated. He's terrible below his knees, he's average when the ball is on the deck, and his pace can best be described as lumbering.

A one trick pony if ever I've seen one. I'm still astonished he was gifted a 2 year contract last year. No doubt he was favoured due to our dearth of young key forwards, but in reality a vacuum >> Newton. And I don't mean of the cleaning variety.