Rivers. I love the bloke, but with all his injuries in the past 2 years, are we going to see him back to full fitness and having a positive influence on the field in 2009? Reason I ask is I haven't seen any updates/stories mentioning his progress around the traps (unless I'm looking in the wrong places).

I'll be really worried for him if he can't break this horrible run, I really want to see him back out there... does anyone know anything I don't?

Cheers.

Only thing I have seen was he was pictured in a running group at the 1st Casey session.

+ve is he was running but it may have been a rehab group.

It's a good question indeed

one of our truly best players but i'm very worried we will ever see him as good as he was and its even more unlikely he will ever reach the peak he might have had he not been ruined so badly by injury

looked like he was going to be an excellent player

still time though

is right!

Pretty easily the guy I've rated as our best, most talented, player for some time now. But every time I think of our No. 27 I'm starting to feel a sense of hopelessness

The guys a KP player, no matter what people say about him being a third tall... His pace has never been a hallmark. It's his incredibly astute footy brain that does the work, that and a spoonfull (or bucketfull) of courage.

With that in mind, it's post 25 that his injuries will hurt MFC. If he can get on the park for the majority of his late twenties and early 30s, then we will have gotten our money's worth.

The guys a KP player, no matter what people say about him being a third tall... His pace has never been a hallmark. It's his incredibly astute footy brain that does the work, that and a spoonfull (or bucketfull) of courage.

With that in mind, it's post 25 that his injuries will hurt MFC. If he can get on the park for the majority of his late twenties and early 30s, then we will have gotten our money's worth.

Spoke to Bailey at the function about Riv, who said he was well and truly back on track.

He has gone from not being able to squat at all, to now doing squats with weights and being able to clean as well.

This is in addition to running etc.

He said he was not sure if he would play round 1, as they wanted to take a very softly softly approach, in order to get him right for the long-term.

The guys a KP player, no matter what people say about him being a third tall... His pace has never been a hallmark. It's his incredibly astute footy brain that does the work, that and a spoonfull (or bucketfull) of courage.

How does that make him a KP?

How does that make him a KP?

Agree.

Rivers lack of body size and pace does limit the type of forwards he can reasonably play notwithstanding that he does exercise pretty good judgement. It still wont overcome the other two.

He would want to play fit this year. Otherwise its his 3rd year out injured and that is too long in AFL. I am even thinking 2 years is a stretch to miss so much football.

I still rate him as the best defender we have, assuming he is fit etc.

How does that make him a KP?

Agree.

Rivers lack of body size and pace does limit the type of forwards he can reasonably play notwithstanding that he does exercise pretty good judgement. It still wont overcome the other two.

He would want to play fit this year. Otherwise its his 3rd year out injured and that is too long in AFL. I am even thinking 2 years is a stretch to miss so much football.

I knew this would happen. I could even narrow down the names of the pedantics that would come out to pick fault, like it needed to be done...

ooooook.

Rivers is a KP defender. In my opinion. He contests one-on-one superbly when it's his turn, causes contests with guys way bigger, faster and more athletic than he is (eg. Riewoldt) His footy brain, as alluded to, gets him in the right place at the right time just about every time.

His shortcomings in terms of class, things like lack of kicking penetration and accuracy, lack of rebounding pace, size, height... in years gone by these weaknesses have never hamstrung his effectiveness... and I see no reason to think the game has changed so much in his absence that they would start limiting him now.

I respect what you say RR, but I disagree wholeheartedly. If we were talking about a new recruit then I would apply that logic, but Rivers has a lot of runs on my board, and has earnt my full confidence on all but the biggest and scariest gorilla KP forwards... such as Hall and Brown.

And as for the 2 years out/3 years out... I would suggest that would be true for a midfielder/small player, but for a KP player who is yet to reach his peak years, Rivers still has time...

Only my opinion though, for whatever it's worth.

Rivers won a Rising Star in his first year in 2004. However over the past few years of football, there is a greater emphasis on pace and mobility around the whole ground not just the midfield. And despite having good judgement he is not fleet of foot nor with the body sized to play one on one on the bigger players. I think the logic for a new recruit is the same as it is for Rivers. They play the same game. And with the demanding nature of AFL and the increased speed at which it is played, footballers cannot afford to miss any football let alone 2 years on the sidelines. In River's case there is no certainty that he will be back given his OP problems.

Rivers won a Rising Star in his first year in 2004. However over the past few years of football, there is a greater emphasis on pace and mobility around the whole ground not just the midfield. And despite having good judgement he is not fleet of foot nor with the body sized to play one on one on the bigger players. I think the logic for a new recruit is the same as it is for Rivers. They play the same game. And with the demanding nature of AFL and the increased speed at which it is played, footballers cannot afford to miss any football let alone 2 years on the sidelines. In River's case there is no certainty that he will be back given his OP problems.

Geeze I hope your wrong!

but your right about 2yrs out of footy

I've almost written the bloke off.

We need to prepare for life after Rivers. Hopefully Garland, Warnock and Martin will form a good enough defence without the services of Rivers.

Will be an absolute bonus if he's a regular next year.

I knew this would happen. I could even narrow down the names of the pedantics that would come out to pick fault, like it needed to be done...

ooooook.

There are always there and it's regularly the same few....

I respect what you say RR, but I disagree wholeheartedly. If we were talking about a new recruit then I would apply that logic, but Rivers has a lot of runs on my board, and has earnt my full confidence on all but the biggest and scariest gorilla KP forwards... such as Hall and Brown.

I agree with you totally, Rivers has more runs on the board as our other defenders Garland, Warnock, Martin have all only had a single year (or less in some cases) in the role, one good/decent/gallant season does not maketh a quality KP defender. That's not saying i don't have faith, but i'm realistic that they've still got a bit to prove before being at Rivers level.

People who say he's spent too long out of the game, despite only playing a few games this year Rivers showed that he can still compete and conquer the best. Have you all forgotten that Brisbane game (where Jonesy kicked 4) where we got smashed, but Rivers kept Brown to 11 touches & 2 goals in a 50+ point smashing where Bradshaw kicked 6.

In River's case there is no certainty that he will be back given his OP problems.

So you don't believe anything that is reported from the club do you? Because i'm sure that i've heard the club say he's passed the worst of his OP and that it wasn't such a big issue this year. The issue he's had this year are from the torn abdominal muscles and not much to do with OP.

Plenty of players have had and overcome OP, like Judd & Hodge, so why couldn't Rivers do the same? From the reports that have come straight from Baileys mouth, if Rivers is doing weight exercises then he seems to be recovering well from the abdominal issues, so once he gets back to full fitness in about 6 months he shouldn't be carrying reoccuring injuries like in previous years. So i see no reason why he couldn't return to his best form or even get better, because i think at his best he could be an AA defender.

Rivers won a Rising Star in his first year in 2004. However over the past few years of football, there is a greater emphasis on pace and mobility around the whole ground not just the midfield. And despite having good judgement he is not fleet of foot nor with the body sized to play one on one on the bigger players. I think the logic for a new recruit is the same as it is for Rivers. They play the same game. And with the demanding nature of AFL and the increased speed at which it is played, footballers cannot afford to miss any football let alone 2 years on the sidelines. In River's case there is no certainty that he will be back given his OP problems.

I think it comes down to how great you believe the change is in the last 2 years vs Rivers' judgement...

I try to look at the glass half full, and as I said before, I think a brain like his is like gold dust in the AFL... moreso than athleticism, mobility etc etc. Riewoldt is one of the most athletic KP players EVER and Rivers had what it took to go with him, even though he was fresh out of his teens and giving away height, weight, experience. I don't think of Harley as particularly quick either, and he has a place in a premiership side. A pretty important one too... Actually the more I think of Harley, the more I think they're very similar in many respects. Oh and consider that it's not like we're swimming in third talls at the moment. It;s not like Rivers will have to fight his way into the line-up.

I think the support he has in defence, and for that matter the pressure brought to bear on him by an underperforming midfield will actually have a greater say on his form, should he return, than anything. When he was playing well a few years ago we had an effective midfield, one of the best forward lines in the comp, a top-3 ruckman, and experienced if flawed rebounding defenders that could alleviate the pressure if needed. That's all gone now, and with Carroll and Holland out of the picture too, Rivers is now the old man of the defence.

RR, I'm going to bookmark this debate for later in the year... Or next year... or whenever Jared feels like pulling on a gurnsey again. I feel this might be an interesting side note this year, and God knows, we're going to need some...

People who say he's spent too long out of the game, despite only playing a few games this year Rivers showed that he can still compete and conquer the best. Have you all forgotten that Brisbane game (where Jonesy kicked 4) where we got smashed, but Rivers kept Brown to 11 touches & 2 goals in a 50+ point smashing where Bradshaw kicked 6.

So you don't believe anything that is reported from the club do you? Because i'm sure that i've heard the club say he's passed the worst of his OP and that it wasn't such a big issue this year. The issue he's had this year are from the torn abdominal muscles and not much to do with OP.

Plenty of players have had and overcome OP, like Judd & Hodge, so why couldn't Rivers do the same? From the reports that have come straight from Baileys mouth, if Rivers is doing weight exercises then he seems to be recovering well from the abdominal issues, so once he gets back to full fitness in about 6 months he shouldn't be carrying reoccuring injuries like in previous years.

I am cautious with injury reports from all AFL clubs including. Over the past two years Rivers has had any number of references to his injuries as being hip, thigh, abdominal etc without referring to where his problems have been.

There is no clear decisive one size fits all solutions to OP. Its great Hodge and Judd are over it. However it is only now that Sylvia is apparently not on a modified training program. How long has he been inflicted and restricted? 5 years? Unlike an ACL injury where there is a formalised path to full recovery, each OP case is different. One persons recovery and rehabilitation is not the same as anothers. Its great Rivers is doing the weights etc but there is no clear certainty that he will be fit and not on any modified program because of this terrible infliction in 2009. I hope he does come back fit because this is a debilitating condition. And it is naive to assume that he should not be carrying any recurring injuries. There are no certainties in these situations.

FWIW, I understand an ex MFC footballer in his mid 30s with a known OP condition when he played is apparently "over" his OP. However I further understand that he cannot get on a treadmill at any speed and is restricted to limited and very restricted forms exercise from the residual impact of his OP condition. Glad he has recovered.

IMO Rivers has played KPP roles in the past. I consider him a KPP player. But he can play other roles for the team including being our 3rd tall.

Fwiw, having spoken to him at The Summit, he is starting to feel confident in his body, he's strengthening his body, he feels its sound, he says he's feeling good.

This is all positive news ....so far. Let's all just keep our fingers crossed that he can progress throughout summer and be ready to go early in the season.

Dean Bailey has stated that its a 'go slow' process with him, because they want him right. Thats a good move considering where the club is at as far as I'm concerned.

I hope, and I believe we will see him return to the form we all desire of Rivers for the Mfc.

There is no clear decisive one size fits all solutions to OP. Its great Hodge and Judd are over it. However it is only now that Sylvia is apparently not on a modified training program. How long has he been inflicted and restricted? 5 years? Unlike an ACL injury where there is a formalised path to full recovery, each OP case is different. One persons recovery and rehabilitation is not the same as anothers. Its great Rivers is doing the weights etc but there is no clear certainty that he will be fit and not on any modified program because of this terrible infliction in 2009. I hope he does come back fit because this is a debilitating condition. And it is naive to assume that he should not be carrying any recurring injuries. There are no certainties in these situations.

If you followed these things as throughly as you say you'd realise that Sylvia's condition was largely about them not knowing how to treat it and that he's started using abdominal strapping which has finally allowed him to return to full fitness, he's an exception and a poor example. I don't disagree that OP is more of a varying injury, but do you want to go tell Mark Coughlan that an ACL is a standard injury with a formalised path to full recovery?

I'm not assuming that he will not be carrying more reoccurring injuries, as many players play their whole careers with one niggle or another, it was more a hopeful statement, most people might recognise this as optimism. As far as i am aware Rivers is in a long-term recovery program which is designed to help him recover from his unique injury of an abdominal tear, which is a delicate injury and needs time to gradually rebuild the strength, but that OP is not currently restricting him. Do you know something that i don't about him still suffering from OP? Or are you just taking a typically glass half empty (or glass smashed into 6 billion pieces and the water slowly evaporating) approach, how shocking coming from you RR.

The other thing that is on his side is age.

were not talking about a 31yr old who could be finished, were talking about one of the leagues top defenders that has years left.

We just have to wait..........

IMO he's out best defender, and one of our better players overall. He reads the play brilliantly, is selfless, gets into the contest and spoils really well. But, as RR said above, spending so much time on the sidelines and not playing makes it more and more difficult to make a return to AFL. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets found out if and when he returns. But I'm still praying that all goes well, he regains his fitness, and gets back to playing some splending football.

I knew this would happen. I could even narrow down the names of the pedantics that would come out to pick fault, like it needed to be done...

How is it being pedantic to talk about what type of player Rivers is after you put forward an opinion and gave some reasons for it?

While no debate ever 'needs to be done' on this forum it'd be a pretty boring place if all assertions went unchallenged.

You dismissed the notion that Rivers is a third tall based on some factors that don't a) exclude him from playing a third-tall role, or B) mean he must be a KPP.

In fact, some of the attributes you asserted that Rivers has are qualities you want in a third-tall (ie. courage and reading the play).

I think it's fair enough for me to ask why you feel those qualities mean he must be a KPP when I don't see him in that way...

In fact, I'd probably use factors that you used to reinforce your point that Rivers was a KPP to argue the opposite, so I was interested to hear more about why you felt they meant he wasn't a third-tall.

Unfortunately guys, Garland, Warnock, Martin and Rivers can't all fit into our backline at one time. All four should be selected if fit and in form. One of them may start on the bench, and at least one of them needs to be flexible enough to play forward or back.

Garland can play small - he's played on Farmer - and I think he can also play forward.

Unfortunately guys, Garland, Warnock, Martin and Rivers can't all fit into our backline at one time. All four should be selected if fit and in form. One of them may start on the bench, and at least one of them needs to be flexible enough to play forward or back.

Garland can play small - he's played on Farmer - and I think he can also play forward.

I agree with you both.

I had always hoped, and even called into Triple M after a game one day, that one of these guys - Warnock, Martin or Garland could turn into a Neitz - learn their trade in the backline, and then turn to a FF/CHF and become a really good player - IMO Garland would probably be best if he could put on some muscle because he's probably the quickest and most agile out of the lot.

What do you think?

(this has gone of the Rivers topic, but I still think everyone is making some excellently valid points.)

If you followed these things as throughly as you say you'd realise that Sylvia's condition was largely about them not knowing how to treat it and that he's started using abdominal strapping which has finally allowed him to return to full fitness, he's an exception and a poor example. I don't disagree that OP is more of a varying injury, but do you want to go tell Mark Coughlan that an ACL is a standard injury with a formalised path to full recovery?

You complain about using an exception and a bad example and then you pull an exceptional case of Mark Coughlan to discredit that an ACL is more standardised injury than OP. Nice one there. Sylvia, Moloney and Luke Ball have all had significant inflictions over a number of years from OP. Like I said there is not a standardised way of treating it and it often requires trying a number of possible treatments to find an appropriate rehabitiation program. The whole treatment of OP has gone through a revolution with the increased occurrence of the infliction and the clinical experience had from dealing with it.

Do you know something that i don't about him still suffering from OP?

I was made aware during the past season he was still getting over it. I was also aware of the abdominal issue. If he is now over the OP then well and good. The real proof will be when he can move freely on the ground.

You complain about using an exception and a bad example and then you pull an exceptional case of Mark Coughlan to discredit that an ACL is more standardised injury than OP. Nice one there. Sylvia, Moloney and Luke Ball have all had significant inflictions over a number of years from OP. Like I said there is not a standardised way of treating it and it often requires trying a number of possible treatments to find an appropriate rehabitiation program. The whole treatment of OP has gone through a revolution with the increased occurrence of the infliction and the clinical experience had from dealing with it.

Obviously sarcasm isn't your strong point along with optimism. If you'd picked it up, i pointed out Coughlan because he's an exception, to show that using Sylvia was a poor example.

It's a pointless argument in reality as whatever anyone thinks is true, we won't really know one way or the other until we see him perform.

RR,

I really enjoy your insights and opinion.

Clearly you are intelligent and have relevant knowledge........but gee, you don't like a dissenting opinion, do you?

Also, while I know you are only trying to bring reality back to various debates on this forum, you really depress me sometimes with your negative views.