If I were Jeff White

[H_T 3,043]

White is out of contract in October.

Why would they trade for a declining sub AFL ruckman whose only strength was neutered by the 2004 rule change rather than pick him up for free in the PSD if they were actually interested?

Perhaps because Paul Roos has a history of trading for players who think who can help his side Sydney stay in their window of opportunity?

Perhaps he sees some value in White?

These are all hypotheticals but more importantly: -

Melbourne could benefit by picking up a kid at pick 62 for instance (example); Bailey is after "kids, and more kids".

I ask you this, why wouldn't they consider trading for a ruckman if Everitt retires or is delisted with a late pick of there's?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Perhaps he sees some value in White?

I dont think Roos values White's capabilities. He did not seem to in 2004 when he was chasing a ruckman. He paid hard for Jolly and was not interested in White. And with the rule change, White has been frequently pantsed by Sydney in recent years.

I ask you this, why wouldn't they consider trading for a ruckman if Everitt retires or is delisted with a late pick of there's?

If Everitt does retire, they will trade for a ruckman. But they will trade for a ruckman that is or will be AFL standard in 2009 and beyond. They will trade for a ruckman who will compliment their game plan of tight contests, physical bullocking within contests and a high number of ruck duels. White offers them nothing in those areas. Nor can White move forward or back in a game. They would be better off scooping up Peter Street. At least he gives them an extra 16 cm in height.

Now why would Sydney trade for a 195cm "short" ruckman who cant cut it in a bottom club, who's performance is in sharp decline and who has no physical impact arund the centre circle who is out of contract?

If MFC can arrange a trade for White they should do it in a flash.

[H_T 3,043]

If Everitt does retire, they will trade for a ruckman. But they will trade for a ruckman that is or will be AFL standard in 2009 and beyond. They will trade for a ruckman who will compliment their game plan of tight contests, physical bullocking within contests and a high number of ruck duels.

They would be better off scooping up Peter Street. At least he gives them an extra 16 cm in height.

Now why would Sydney trade for a 195cm "short" ruckman who cant cut it in a bottom club, who's performance is in sharp decline and who has no physical impact arund the centre circle who is out of contract?

If MFC can arrange a trade for White they should do it in a flash.

Ruckman are hard to come by in the draft or even the PSD. What Sydney have is Jolly who is AFL standard. They have a couple of young developers, but if they are looking to next year, White would have to be considered. White is not completely finished. (ALthough I agree he is in decline).

re: Peter Street. (Sorry Peter!)

So White is out of contract. That won't stop Sydney offering say a 1 year contract...He's form has been below par, but Bails has taken the opportunity to have a look at the rest of our Ruck stocks (bar Meesen). That has just magnified White's situation IMO.

I agree if MFC can get a trade up for White...they should move on it asap

[Doggo 32]

Its naive to think that because White has played well against Club it creates value above and beyond any other performance he has put in. Strange things happen but Clubs arent that stupid these days.

The WBs were not switched on for a game against a nagging cellar dweller and are focussed on the Cats game. Johnson and Cooney all had poor games. However I dont see the need to condemn them for one poor game like you do Hudson. I'll measure him over the year and he has been a great pick up so far for the Dogs. Hudson is not a brilliant technician but performs the role required of giving a contest at centre bounces and creating space for other players with the body on body work.

You have to understand that ruckwork is far more than taps. Sandilands gets 40+ taps a game and his impact is zip because his decision making is poor, his mobility is limited and his work around the stoppages needs to improve. Street is 211cm tall. Thats where his advantage starts and stops. He's a dud at AFL level and I dont see why you want to talk him up when clearly his performance does not warrant it. Strangely you want to talk down Hudson who is clearly making an impact at AFL level and has been a good acquisition for the Bulldogs

Re: Hudson, its not one poor game i'm judging him on, but exposed form over his career. Ruckwork is one aspect of the game i've always been very interested in, and i pay a lot of attention to ruck contests at all games i attend, whether Melbourne is playing or not. I've seen the Bulldogs play live on 4 occassions this year, as well as many times on TV, and i'm convinced his technique is no better in the ruck than our own PJ- who can't even make 1st ruck in the 16th placed team, yet Hudson is virtually playing lone ruck for the 2nd placed team.

Re: Street, i'm not talking him up, merely stating the fact that it is expected that he will beat pretty much everyone in the ruck, just as is it expected his opponent will murder him around the ground. I know rucking is more than just taps, like i said, i agree he's no good at AFL level. Read more thoroughly.

Would Hudson be playing first ruck at Melbourne? Jamar and PJ have both been patchy over the years, especially Jamar, but it's obvious DB rates rucking technique quite highly, otherwise PJ would certainly be preffered as first ruck over Jamar. Hudson's ruckwork is inferior to Jamar's, but like PJ, he is clearly the better player. Would he be our starting ruckman?

Be honest.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Hudson's ruckwork is inferior to Jamar's, but like PJ, he is clearly the better player. Would he be our starting ruckman?

Be honest.

Yes.

I dont rate Jamar or PJ as ruckman. Jamar has limited impact in the centre, has poor decision making and does zip around the ground. PJ works very hard around the ground and gives a spirited display. He just cant ruck. He is a 200cm midfielder who is limited when the ball is above shoulder height. If we were getting Warnock, I'd trade PJ.

For what the Bulldogs needed in the centre to compliment their midfield, Hudson is perfect as the bullocking ruckman. He is no Dean Cox but has shored a hole that was in the Bulldogs side.

[H_T 3,043]

Yes.

I dont rate Jamar or PJ as ruckman. Jamar has limited impact in the centre, has poor decision making and does zip around the ground. PJ works very hard around the ground and gives a spirited display. He just cant ruck. He is a 200cm midfielder who is limited when the ball is above shoulder height. If we were getting Warnock, I'd trade PJ.

For what the Bulldogs needed in the centre to compliment their midfield, Hudson is perfect as the bullocking ruckman. He is no Dean Cox but has shored a hole that was in the Bulldogs side.

Meesen might have to go.....

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Meesen might have to go.....

No value whatsoever.

Best hope if he comes good next year. Otherwise he is off the list when his contract ends.

Heard a comment that he had a 3yr contract but dont quote me on it.

If so and he was not much chop next year, I would get him to do a Nicho and retire by end of 2009

[beelzebub 23,313]

anyone know what sort of money he's on ? ( Meesen )

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

anyone know what sort of money he's on ? ( Meesen )

Too much on output to date!

[H_T 3,043]

No value whatsoever.

Best hope if he comes good next year. Otherwise he is off the list when his contract ends.

Heard a comment that he had a 3yr contract but dont quote me on it.

If so and he was not much chop next year, I would get him to do a Nicho and retire by end of 2009

He's Craig Cameron's baby. Cameron was spewing when he missed him in the draft and lost out to Adelaide. He followed his progress and picked him up last year with pick 37 i think. Bailey backed Cameron's expertise then. Cameron's gone and we're left holding the baby without the bath water!

I hope it wasn't a 3 year contract....

[H_T 3,043]

Bailey was on record a few weeks ago re: Meesen, saying that he must improve and take some serious steps to improve over the next few weeks......may have to just grit the teeth and pay him out?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

He's Craig Cameron's baby. Cameron was spewing when he missed him in the draft and lost out to Adelaide. He followed his progress and picked him up last year with pick 37 i think. Bailey backed Cameron's expertise then. Cameron's gone and we're left holding the baby without the bath water!

I hope it wasn't a 3 year contract....

Given Bailey was PA assistant coach in a two team AFL mad town, he would have surely had some awareness or disposition of Meesen at the Crows or in the SANFL. I think Bailey has partial responsibility.

In regard to DB's comments. I would suggest that he is saying the bleeding obvious about Meesen. MFC cant afford a pay out any contract so they should see what they can get out of him for the rest of the time. I hope the contract is not significant in $$$$. It should not be.

[H_T 3,043]

Given Bailey was PA assistant coach in a two team AFL mad town, he would have surely had some awareness or disposition of Meesen at the Crows or in the SANFL. I think Bailey has partial responsibility.

In regard to DB's comments. I would suggest that he is saying the bleeding obvious about Meesen. MFC cant afford a pay out any contract so they should see what they can get out of him for the rest of the time. I hope the contract is not significant in $$$$. It should not be.

Well I reckon he might have to re-visit re:Meesen, with Warnock touted around. And as I have said before Jeff White is on thin ice. The smart thing might be if Warnock is to come then White is to go, keep Meesen for further development and another option if improvement comes to fruition to either keep / or trade.

Leaving Jamar, PJ, Warnock & Meesen in the ruck stocks.

You know Martin looks to be just as big as PJ (side comment) - (looking at a pic in Monday's paper)

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Well I reckon he might have to re-visit re:Meesen, with Warnock touted around. And as I have said before Jeff White is on thin ice. The smart thing might be if Warnock is to come then White is to go, keep Meesen for further development and another option if improvement comes to fruition to either keep / or trade.

Leaving Jamar, PJ, Warnock & Meesen in the ruck stocks.

You know Martin looks to be just as big as PJ (side comment) - (looking at a pic in Monday's paper)

Trade one of the ruckman that has some value. (I'd trade PJ for the right deal). Otherwise, we have dead wood on the list. I just cant see us doing a payout.

[H_T 3,043]

Trade one of the ruckman that has some value. (I'd trade PJ for the right deal). Otherwise, we have dead wood on the list. I just cant see us doing a payout.

Does that mean Jamar and White have no value? <_<

If they have no value won't they be considered Dead Wood?

[Roost It 1,434]

Does that mean Jamar and White have no value? <_<

If they have no value won't they be considered Dead Wood?

I'd have to agree with RR on this. We really don't have a ruckman for the future, which is why RWarnock is a must get. I'd trade PJ in an instant for a late second round pick or a young player

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Does that mean Jamar and White have no value? <_<

If they have no value won't they be considered Dead Wood?

White is out of contract and finished in AFL. No trade value.

Jamar is better ruckman than PJ so I would keep Jamar and I believe that PJ may attract more interest at the trade table. However its all marginal though.

[Bruce Almighty 0]

i would offer my services to the Hawks next year for a 1 year deal worth 150,000-200,000. Hawks would get him in the PSD draft, not wasting any of their picks in the national draft. Cats will go back to back this year. So White poses as a handy backup for the Campbell/Taylor duo should one get injured of be out of form. Hawks are well and truly into their rebuliding so this could work for their push in 2009. this doesnt benifit us at all but wont affect us either, our window isnt open just yet.

We should trade him to cartel, while cruiser, hampson and cloke are developing.

[Doggo 32]

I dont rate Jamar or PJ as ruckman. Jamar has limited impact in the centre, has poor decision making and does zip around the ground. PJ works very hard around the ground and gives a spirited display. He just cant ruck. He is a 200cm midfielder who is limited when the ball is above shoulder height. If we were getting Warnock, I'd trade PJ.

Jamar is better ruckman than PJ so I would keep Jamar and I believe that PJ may attract more interest at the trade table.

That doesnt make sense. If we were getting Warnock, why keep Jamar and trade PJ?

You just said u dont rate Jamar or PJ as ruckman, yet you'd keep Jamar, whose supposed strength is his rucking, over PJ who offers versatility and skill Jamar doesnt?

The very fact that PJ is more versatile and can be used in other positions on the ground, as well as adequately play a relief role for our #1 ruckman next year, makes him far more valuable to us IMO.

PJ would probably attract more interest, but only just. The fact he is not playing as the #1 ruckman now doesnt help raise his value, and the fact Jamar's playing #1 raises his significantly. They're both lowly rated at the moment, and in any case, we'd be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for either of them. I don't see why anyone would want to keep Jamar over PJ purely because he's "a better ruckman", if we should have Warnock filling the #1 role next year.

I'd rather a versatile, mobile #2 ruckman to compliment the giant Warnock, than the lumbering Jamar playing a relief role and having no impact at all. No use having two 'giants' with questionable skills, who do nothing around the ground in the same team. Warnock is an upgrade on Jamar and PJ, but is no certainty to be a quality player yet.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

That doesnt make sense. If we were getting Warnock, why keep Jamar and trade PJ?

yes it does

Id dont rate Jamar or PJ as ruckman. However, I think PJ's versatility may get him some value at the trade table and in pure ruck work Jamar is ahead of PJ.

PJ just does not have an impact at ruck contests and just does not give a physical presence at the fall of the ball. His mobility and foot skills are nice to have but he just does not do anything in the ruck and his value is peripheral.

PJ cant ruck he just isnt a forward or a back and he is more a 200cm rover! He does a little bit of everything but does master any position enough to provide any real durable value to the side. And I dont see his upside if we get Warnock. Jamar would only have to pinch 25% of the time in ruck and provide a physical presence at ruck contests while we rest Warnock.

As I said its marginal between the two overall. But if I was forced to deal with one or the other, PJ goes.

[Ooze2Juice 0]

White is out of contract and finished in AFL. No trade value.

Jamar is better ruckman than PJ so I would keep Jamar and I believe that PJ may attract more interest at the trade table. However its all marginal though.

I agree that PJ would attract more attention at the trade table, but that's because he is superior to Jamar in every facet of the game. Even in ruck contests, Jamar often mistimes his jump, and then becomes useless. If PJ doesn't win the tap at least he sometimes follows it up with a clearance, certainly more often than Jamar. PJ will be valuable to us in the coming years, I don't want him traded.

[Doggo 32]

yes it does

I'd dont rate Jamar or PJ as ruckman. However, I think PJ's versatility may get him some value at the trade table and in pure ruck work Jamar is ahead of PJ.

PJ just does not have an impact at ruck contests and just does not give a physical presence at the fall of the ball. His mobility and foot skills are nice to have but he just does not do anything in the ruck and his value is peripheral.

PJ cant ruck he just isnt a forward or a back and he is more a 200cm rover! He does a little bit of everything but does master any position enough to provide any real durable value to the side. And I dont see his upside if we get Warnock. Jamar would only have to pinch 25% of the time in ruck and provide a physical presence at ruck contests while we rest Warnock.

As I said its marginal between the two overall. But if I was forced to deal with one or the other, PJ goes.

I don't know about you, but i'm not happy playing with 17 men on the field (even if for only 25% of the time) which is effectively what we are doing when we play Jamar. He's improved, but considering where he was prior to this season, expectations of him have always been low. I think you're definitely underestimating PJ, as well as the fundamental value of having a player who is confident enough in his own foot-skills, and 'up to AFL standard'. That's my main concern. It can be the difference between winning and losing a Grand Final...

Consider this: There's 0:30 odd secs remaining, 29 minute mark, we're 4 points down, in last qtr of the Grand Final... The ball is deep in our defense and we're playing a heavy flood. It's then cleared out and worked forward thru a long kick, eventually marked by Jamar, forward of our defensive flood in space, no teammate within 30m of him, just forward of centre wing. There are only 4 players on the ground forward of he as opponents rush to get back. As soon as he marks, instead of immediatly playing on and kicking it inside 50 quickly, he opts to go back on the mark and wait for a teammate to receive the handball, as more players run forward... The crowd pleads with him to move it on as he waits for a free teammate to run past... He has no idea how much time is left on the clock though... Seconds tick until eventually he offloads a handball to a player running past who bangs it long to a huge pack 20m from goal... The high kick is spoiled by the opposition ruckman and defenders running back into the hole, just as the siren sounds.

The Demon's lose the GF by less than a goal.

Mark Jamar's lack of skill, footy-nous, instinct, initiative and confidence in himself to run and kick the thing single-handedly costs us a premiership... !!!

I know it's only hypothetical, but it makes me ill just thinking about it. Mainly because there's a fair chance it could happen if he ever played one. For this very reason i'll never subscribe to keeping Jamar over PJ, unless he can improve DRASTICALLY and prove me wrong in the last few matches of this year (unlikely).

RR, it's time to drop the outdated preconceptions of what PJ has been/done in previous years, and look at how he's played this year. Back up some of your claims with some evidence once in a while. There's been steady improvement in his form in 2008, and whilst he had just a so-so performance against the Bulldogs, he did land heavily on his head (flying for a pack mark) in the 1st qtr, yet still managed the best ruck hitout efficiency % of any ruckman on the ground, as well as more possesions than Jamar, from much less time on ground. His rucking has never been a strength, but it has improved to an adequate level and his total effective hitouts % is better than both White and Jamar, according to this article from the Age: http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/2008...259.html?page=3

And if the stats say anything else, PJ's contested marking has been markedly better than Jamar's as well this year- Paul Johnson has taken 7 contested marks from 11 matches, Jamar just 3 contested marks from 9 appearances. Johnson's 1%'s stats are also up on Jamar's, 28 to 15. His commitment spoiling in the air has been another big improvement, and something that has rarely been questioned this year. I believe his physicality has also lifted immensely this year. He's got the body, and in my eyes, he's beginning to use it very well now. He shepherds quite well, and is generally a good tackler, and is selfless and team-orientated.

Actually have a look at him when he's in the ruck, and in the air, next time we play. Pay close attention- he's not hopeless the way you believe he is. If u do get to watch the replay of the WB's game, pay particular notice to the time he spent in the ruck against Hudson... he outpointed the Bullldog's 'star recruit' in almost every contest they had.

Stats don't always show the whole picture, but they do say alot, especially in regards to rucking.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

1. Firstly, your situation is hypothetical and I would normally have my first ruck on the ground at that stage of the game. Also I could dream up a hypothetical about PJ. But I dont see the point or the value in doing so besides playing on your own bias. BTW, neither PJ or Jamar are a grand final ruckman in quality but then again they could be lucky like Steven Armstrong and be in the right place at the right time. In regard to 17 men, unless PJ can impose at ruck bounces and throw his weight around clearing paths for smaller players he is as useless in a finals series as White has been. He is starting to do it. But he its not natural and he is not good enough.

2. We both agree that its marginal between Jamar and PJ. And much of PJ's work comes from what he does around the ground in quasi roles other than a ruckman. Its a bit of everything without anything standing out.

3. I note the MFC footy department have Jamar as No 1 ruckman rather than PJ. Hmm what would that be telling us? I dont think Jamar is great ruck package. But when I look at skill set PJ just does not have it in the areas where he needs to have it most. In the ruck. And if he did have that he would No 1 ruck. And he is not up against much. But tell that to the football department.

4. PJ has improved but I believe his upside is limited because of his weakness in the ruck. BTW, I did not call him hopeless. I just dont think he is good enough for AFL. As a consequence we should consider extracting maximum value for him at the trade table which I dont think we would possibly get with Jamar.

[mo64 5,853]

PJ has improved but I believe his upside is limited because of his weakness in the ruck. BTW, I did not call him hopeless. I just dont think he is good enough for AFL. As a consequence we should consider extracting maximum value for him at the trade table which I dont think we would possibly get with Jamar.

For once, I agree with Rhino. Depending on whether we pick up Warnock and or Nik Nat, PJ would be a good trade proposition. His market value is probably at its highest at the moment, where as Jamar would have next to no trade value. Interestingly though, Jamar is DB's preferred 1st ruckman, which says something about their relative rucking skills.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Jamar is limited in scope really to rucking..and he's only average in that. Capable..but average. Warnock coming in would supplant Jamar rendering him somewhat limited in usefullness. PJ has far more strings to his bow. Why would anyone rather rid our selves of a more multi talented player in favour of a limited one.

Both may attract limited interest on the trade table but id keep PJ in a blink in preference to Jamar.

With Warnock as posibly a new #1 ruck..PJ fills a pinch hit role well.. Jamar doesnt.