On 03/01/2014 at 03:54, jazza said:

abc radio spruiking for peter nevill as next keeper

said his shield batting ave, gives him the nod

How's his work with the gloves?

After all, the position is "wicket keeper".

Mitchell Johnson does it again!

Nevill's first class record is pretty good, better than I expected.

Probably a silly question, but why are wicket keepers who are genuine Test quality batsmen in their own right, so rare? I'm assuming it's borne out of a combination of spending a lot of energy keeping, and spending most of their careers batting in the lower-middle order for that reason, so they get less focus than other batsmen in terms of coaching and practice. When was the last time we saw a keeper stroll out at number 3 in a Test?

what a pleasure it is to witness the rise of Devereux. finally after what seems 4 Yrs since his arrival as a spinner? he is arriving as a batsmen.

I was hoping for a leg spinner, who bats back then.

Devo Smith!!!

  On 03/01/2014 at 08:32, Nasher said:

Nevill's first class record is pretty good, better than I expected.

Probably a silly question, but why are wicket keepers who are genuine Test quality batsmen in their own right, so rare? I'm assuming it's borne out of a combination of spending a lot of energy keeping, and spending most of their careers batting in the lower-middle order for that reason, so they get less focus than other batsmen in terms of coaching and practice. When was the last time we saw a keeper stroll out at number 3 in a Test?

AD DeVilliers

Sangakkara (Spelling)

MS Dhoni

Brendan McCullum

have all done higher batting duties while keeping.

DeVilliers and Sangakkara are world class batsman in their own right.

  On 03/01/2014 at 11:03, Rhino Richards said:

AD DeVilliers

Sangakkara (Spelling)

MS Dhoni

Brendan McCullum

have all done higher batting duties while keeping.

DeVilliers and Sangakkara are world class batsman in their own right.

I agree, but it's hardly a huge pool, is it? Modest batsmen who occasionally pull out a big innings in the Prior, Wade, Ian Healy mould are more the norm.

  On 03/01/2014 at 08:32, Nasher said:

Nevill's first class record is pretty good, better than I expected.

Probably a silly question, but why are wicket keepers who are genuine Test quality batsmen in their own right, so rare? I'm assuming it's borne out of a combination of spending a lot of energy keeping, and spending most of their careers batting in the lower-middle order for that reason, so they get less focus than other batsmen in terms of coaching and practice. When was the last time we saw a keeper stroll out at number 3 in a Test?

because there is only one position for keeper

a lot of keepers start in teams with the position as understudy

so they concentrate on thier batting to give them the opputunity to take the top position

wade,had to wait in victoria

ludeman had to wait for manou

a lot of them get to represent at odi and 20/20

waiting fir the next vacavcy to appear

also add to your batsmen keeper list

alec stewart

adam gilchrist

Edited January 3, 201411 yr by jazza

  On 03/01/2014 at 11:03, Rhino Richards said:

AD DeVilliers

Sangakkara (Spelling)

MS Dhoni

Brendan McCullum

have all done higher batting duties while keeping.

DeVilliers and Sangakkara are world class batsman in their own right.

Add Flower (Zim) to this list

  On 03/01/2014 at 20:07, Nasher said:

I agree, but it's hardly a huge pool, is it? Modest batsmen who occasionally pull out a big innings in the Prior, Wade, Ian Healy mould are more the norm.

There are only about 8 Test playing nations

Of the Test playing nations only the Windies, Pakistan and B'desh are excluded from having a Keeper who can bat..it's more common than you think.

Of recent times I think we have been blessed with keeper all rounders who can keep and bat well.

I know Prior has had a bad 2013 but he and Healy were better batsman than modest. Wade, I would agree

  On 03/01/2014 at 22:25, Rhino Richards said:

There are only about 8 Test playing nations

Of the Test playing nations only the Windies, Pakistan and B'desh are excluded from having a Keeper who can bat..it's more common than you think.

Of recent times I think we have been blessed with keeper all rounders who can keep and bat well.

I know Prior has had a bad 2013 but he and Healy were better batsman than modest. Wade, I would agree

Number of Test nations notwithstanding, I still think it's not common. South Africa, who we'd all agree are a strong cricketing nation, their last regular keeper was Mark Boucher who averaged 30. Since they rejoined the Test circuit, AB is the first Test class batsman/wicket keeper they've had. Because of the small number of Test nations (and the even smaller number of quality ones), you'd have to look at the "next best" from each nation to really be able to draw a conclusion.

In Australia, the cupboard is completely bare for keepers who bat at Test quality. These are the first class averages of the first choice wicket keepers of each state:

MS Wade (Vic) - 39.00 - but he is known to be a rubbish keeper

TD Paine (Tas) - 31.7

PM Nevill (NSW) - 38.6

CD Hartley (Qld) - 31.8

TD Ludeman (SA) - 24.1

SM Whiteman (WA) - 35.04

Prior you're right on. Jonny Bairstow (clear second choice keeper) has a first class average of 43, but hasn't looked near it in his 13 Tests to date.

Ian Healy had a Test average of 27. You couldn't forge a Test career as a batsman alone with that kind of record. If that doesn't meet the definition of "modest batsman" I'm not sure what would.

I suppose I expected that after Gilchrist, we'd start to see far more wicket keepers who could bat in their own right come through the system world wide. It hasn't happened to the degree I thought it would.

Hey guys, get your heads out of the record books and have a look at what's going on at the SCG. England 5/23 - reminiscent of 186.

Anderson, the night watchman is equal top score ATM with 7.

And now it falls upon a Kiwi and a Zimbabwean to salvage some English pride.

I think it would be fair to say that the English tail "wagged" for once (comparatively) and that made it easy for Clarke although I don't think there was ever a chance of enforcing the follow on at Sydney even with the current pitch which looks different to the Sydney tracks of the past.

There's a one day series to follow. I would imagine though that the majority of the English team will be eager to catch the first plane home as soon as this match finishes.

  On 04/01/2014 at 00:21, Nasher said:

I suppose I expected that after Gilchrist, we'd start to see far more wicket keepers who could bat in their own right come through the system world wide. It hasn't happened to the degree I thought it would.

Gilchrist, Sangakkara and De Villiers would be the only candidates i have seen that would justify their positions as batsman only.

However Haddin this series would have justified his position

Batting keepers are all rounders in my opinion. And good all rounders are extremely hard to find.

  On 04/01/2014 at 05:01, Whispering_Jack said:

I would imagine though that the majority of the English team will be eager to catch the first plane home as soon as this match finishes.

They have played since Perth like they took a direct LDN flight after losing the Ashes.

Some of the senior players are finished at the top level. I feel for players like Stokes who with Broad have fought a lone fight.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cricket/25601894

Andy Flower: Batting Average 51.54

  On 04/01/2014 at 09:50, daisycutter said:

Andy Flower: Batting Average 51.54

????????

is he gonna do a Bobby Simpson?

a little ditty for the Poms to take back 'ome to uncle Albert....

  On 04/01/2014 at 09:59, dee-luded said:

????????

is he gonna do a Bobby Simpson?

doubt it d-l, but he is (was) a good example of a keeper who would have been selected purely as a batsman (and an opener to boot)

  On 04/01/2014 at 10:58, daisycutter said:

doubt it d-l, but he is (was) a good example of a keeper who would have been selected purely as a batsman (and an opener to boot)

i don't remember Andy Flower other than his name, as one of the brothers....

just looked him up.... > ah he's from Zimbabwe, not Sth Africa. petals. geographically close. no wonder I don't have a great recollection of him. we didn't play them much.

& a wicket keeper

I'm not one to watch cricket, when our Test or one day team isn't playing.

  On 04/01/2014 at 11:37, dee-luded said:

i don't remember Andy Flower other than his name, as one of the brothers....

just looked him up.... > ah he's from Zimbabwe, not Sth Africa. petals. geographically close. no wonder I don't have a great recollection of him. we didn't play them much.

& a wicket keeper

I'm not one to watch cricket, when our Test or one day team isn't playing.

Andy Flower was Zimbabwe's one and only genuine Test quality batsman. He must have been fiercely loyal to his country, because he could happily have slotted straight in to the South African side and enjoyed some Test success. His record in a garbage team is outstanding.

Back to the present day - what happens if Bailey scores a century in the second innings?

  On 04/01/2014 at 23:43, Nasher said:

Andy Flower was Zimbabwe's one and only genuine Test quality batsman. He must have been fiercely loyal to his country, because he could happily have slotted straight in to the South African side and enjoyed some Test success. His record in a garbage team is outstanding.

yeah I remember the 2 flowers, but had forgotten they played with Zimbabwe. I hadn't remembered where he fielded, but recall they were both outstanding competitors. & I remember now, thinking back, how I liked the idea of another country joining the test arena. but that information had gone deep to the back of my mind.

I feel something is deeply wrong inside that English team & they are now playing below their ability, like we were under the old regime. I think change has to happen to get some strong leadership into that team to get the players back into gear.

one player comes back into the side, prior to this tour, & their mojo goes out the door??? no pun intended. but something is wrong or out of kilter Re their national team culture, & their playing like schoolgirls.

  On 04/01/2014 at 23:45, Nasher said:

Back to the present day - what happens if Bailey scores a century in the second innings?

maintain the current team & add new talent into the squad.

openings only on form opportunities?

  On 04/01/2014 at 23:45, Nasher said:

Back to the present day - what happens if Bailey scores a century in the second innings?

just threw his wicket away on big hook for 46

From the depths of Lord six months ago to a 5-0 whitewash, the selectors, coaches, captain and players deserve all accolades for their extraordinary efforts performance and achievement.