Thank god CAC is gone..

[Jarka 767]

Hard as it may be to believe, but there is actually ground in between a list of absolute champions and a list full of duds. Shocking stuff, I know.

Do you agree with his list of guns?

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Do you agree with his list of guns?

So what then... You're going to go through each individual player and argue whether they're good or not?

You wrote off Dunn putting him in the same group as the Molans and Rogers... How are we supposed to take you seriously... He's still a kid AND IS STILL PLAYING!!

[Kiss of Death 747]

Threads like this make me hope that CAC doesn't poke his head in from time to time to see how the place is going.

[Jarka 767]

We delisted his players!!!!!

HIS players got us to 5 finals series in 7 years!!! Then DB came in and got rid of the dead wood...

Are you being serious??? Our record speaks for itself, I can't illustrate anything more than what history already tells us.

How hard is it to understand that we have only had a few picks in the top 6 in the draft... And at times we got rid of second rounders to top up, which limits his influence. Of those top 6 picks... I can only think of Sylvia, who will keep playing, and McLean who would be a dead-set star in any other team. Of COURSE we have the Molans and Rogers and Smiths... but SO DOES EVERYONE! And given our lack of KP players how could you blame him for going for the next available big man?

We've had alot more top 6 picks than many other clubs, in fact the ones with recent success have had very few tops picks...Brisbane, Port, Sydney, W.C., Geelong. Sorry, that argument is just an excuse.

Outside of those few top picks he's gotten some pretty impressive selections with his rookies and late picks... but then HE'S HAD TO! He hasn't done a Saints or Hawthorn and been afforded the opportunity of bottoming out. But we can only go so far when our ONLY selections are rookies and late picks... Given that, he did a remarkable job to keep us in the business end of the ladder during his time.

rubbish, the business end of the ladder is the top 4. How many times did we finish in the top 4?

I'll say it again... and answer this point if you can...

WHEN the Marics, Grimes, Morton... Bate, Newton, Dunn, Bartram, Jones blah blah blah... reach 24-30, let's see how we do. Geelong have a team CHOCK FULL of maturity... They matured at the right time...

*yawn* How many times have we heard this over the last decade? 'When blah blah blah finally matures we'll be a great team!'

Don't hold your breath

CAC picked good players... It's just that we got rid of the mature guys, and Daniher stayed with the mature guys too long.

Which mature players are you referring to? (This should be good!)

My POINT is that it's the right way to go. Bottoming out while simultaneously playing the youth... Let it run its course, and when this team of young GOOD PLAYERS mature, we'll be singing CAC's praises.

You say this like we have some control over our predicament. Wake up to the news, we are not good enough to tank. We are in this position because we have a poor list. We have huge holes in our list. We need to rebuild our list.

There is a reason why we are clearly the worst team in the competition. (and it's not because we delisted the mature players)

Edit: It's bloody hard replying to a post in that format, I've just lost half of my responses, but my basic response is that I'm not impressed by a mediocre teams that just scrapes into the finals just because half of the teams play them every year. If that's what your basing your argument on then you'll have to come up with better than that.

[Jarka 767]

So what then... You're going to go through each individual player and argue whether they're good or not?

You wrote off Dunn putting him in the same group as the Molans and Rogers... How are we supposed to take you seriously... He's still a kid AND IS STILL PLAYING!!

There is a huge difference between being good and being a gun, or are you trying to backtrack? I wouldn't be surprised if you were.

God I hope you're not saying Dunn is a gun footballer, he struggles to make an impact at Sandy and is just a few levels highr than hopeless with Melbourne.

[demonsflag555657 3]

Hear Hear. The most over-rated, over-hyped man at Melbourne for the past 10 years. Never could work out why people loved him so much. We have not had one star of the competition selected under his tenure as list manager. Good riddance.

Totally agree i have said this a few times on here and i get abused for having a go at cac.

Look at the facts do we have a pavlitch or a brown no he did not get anyone.

All he is good at is picking 50 plus picks but check out the other clubs and u will find that they do just as good re hird.

[demonsflag555657 3]

Grgic > ALL

Do u meen BIG ALL if so agreed

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Are you being serious??? Our record speaks for itself, I can't illustrate anything more than what history already tells us.

Ok. Now I'm confused. YES I'm being serious. Our record speaks for itself? What does that mean? Look... I'm not HAPPY we haven't won a flag in the last decade, but we've not been as starved of joy as Freo and Richmond. Or the Blues, you could say. I never used the word success the way you do. As far as I'm concerned the blame does not go to CAC for our lack of a premiership... That is all.

We've had alot more top 6 picks than many other clubs, in fact the ones with recent success have had very few tops picks...Brisbane, Port, Sydney, W.C., Geelong. Sorry, that argument is just an excuse.

WHAT?!! Who? Sylvia and Mclean?!! That's two! Plus Morton of course who hasn't played during this period.

Picks inside the top 6 for those sides you mentioned: Brisbane - 4, Port - 3, Sydney - 3, WC - 3... Only Geelong didn't have those picks, and they had all their FS selections as we all wel know...

So right there, you're flat out wrong. But I agree... It's just an excuse... But isn't that what we're doing here? Just putting up excuses and reasons for our own judgements? You see the difference is when I come up with my thoughts it's not as a reaction to the obvious [censored] we've been seeing, it's after looking at all the facts without making a prior decision.

rubbish, the business end of the ladder is the top 4. How many times did we finish in the top 4?

Ooooh.... Ok... well then you MUST be right then. Look. You're missing my point. What I'm trying to say is that we've had some pretty good runs in those years. We ALL thought we were good enough to have a crack at it over 2005-2007... Are we forgetting this? We're not PERENNIALLY awful, like the Rabbitohs, the Blues were for 5 years, The Tiges for 20 years... We WERE good enough at that time, we had respect from other clubs. Yet you ignore this and trot out the "we haven't won finals" line... Stop telling me this as though I don't realise it. My point was never that it's ok to just limp into the finals... And if you're going to ake me repeat myself AGAIN, Im gonna just go to PMs.

yawn How many times have we heard this over the last decade? 'When blah blah blah finally matures we'll be a great team!'

I haven't heard it. I've certainly never said it for anyone except the players taken from 2003 onwards... and unless I'm mistaken those players are still developing. Ok... Then we'll see. Maybe you're right... Maybe it'll be the same thing all over again... And MAYBE the fact that DB is playing on form, playing youth, and BOTTOMING OUT for three years means that we'll finally have a fresh start?

Don't hold your breath

Which mature players are you referring to? (This should be good!)

Ward for one. I hated him, but he was mature and fast... two thing SORELY LACKING in our side at the moment. Byron was mature (though obviously was done). Brown another (though he retired). Anyway, my point was that Daniher held on to mature guys too long... Rigoni, Ellis, Brown, Ward's probably the big one for me. And honestly I reckon Neita and Holland could have moved on but were required as we weren't ready to lose the leadership. Godfrey was mature and did his job. Ferguson was 25+.

You say this like we have some control over our predicament. Wake up to the news, we are not good enough to tank. We are in this position because we have a poor list. We have huge holes in our list. We need to rebuild our list.

Oh my God. Please, just READ what I've written. I KNOW WE'RE NO GOOD! I've been to almost every game this season. But what I've seen is that we're just too young!! Our midfield is barely into its twenties! And what we lacked over the last decade, we now have... and that's clearance players. 3 of them who are starting in the guts on Monday. Stop telling me to wake up to the fact the list is no good, I KNOW the list isn't complete. But I like our young players. It's the guys over 26 that are the problem. Green's done ok, but Yze, Bruce, Robbo, Wheatley... There's only 4 of them and they were never going to be able to control games, they never did.

There is a reason why we are clearly the worst team in the competition. (and it's not because we delisted the mature players)

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Hmm. For some reason That duplicated my post... disregard the stuff in small type... Sorry about that.

[Jarka 767]

WHAT?!! Who? Sylvia and Mclean?!! That's two! Plus Morton of course who hasn't played during this period.

Picks inside the top 6 for those sides you mentioned: Brisbane - 4, Port - 3, Sydney - 3, WC - 3... Only Geelong didn't have those picks, and they had all their FS selections as we all wel know...

So right there, you're flat out wrong. But I agree... It's just an excuse...

I won't reply to everything because we could just go around in circles, I just wanted to point out that you've forgotten the year when we picked up Johnstone. We had pick 1 & 2, we traded 2 for White (who was a number 1 pick in his own right so no matter how you look at it it counts as 2 top 6 picks) so that makes 5 top 6 picks, TJ, White, McLean, Sylvia & Morton.

So what was that again about being wrong? Try again....

[Hannabal 4]

Dunn is a first rounder into his 4th year. He should be doing much better. I doubt his longevity in the game.

[phoenix 32]

You are 100% correct. However Chris Lamb, Luke Molan, Nick Smith and Lynden Dunn are all first round picks the CAC was responisble for. Frawley, Bell and Sylvia are also other first round picks headed in the same direction

Yeah, gee thanks CAC for the list of absolute champions we currently have

Jarka your position on Craig Cameron is well known to anyone who has the energy to read Demonland. In fact it's like a broken record and your preparedness to come out swinging any time his name is mentioned is just plain boring. You're not the only one who does this, but sadly it makes Demonland a boring read.

You'll point out that I don't have to read it and you're right. And guess what, I don't usually but I do read some of the threads on list management because I think it is a difficult and interesting area. It's also an area that the mug supporter (broadly - one who doesn't work in the pointy end of an AFL football department) can try and understand.

I've seen other debates you've been in on this topic and it seems your mind is made up.

As far as I'm concerned that's fine but I'd invite you to consider a couple of other things in your consideration of our current list and your crusade of consigning Craig Cameron to the waste paper basket:

1. Do you think players automatically reach their potential without development once they've reached a club?

2. Do you think we've had the financial resources of other clubs to physically and mentally develop our players?

3. Do you think it is coincidence that Collingwood have the best drilled team in the league and have massively increased their player welfare budget in recent years including yearly trips to the United States to develop leadership and fitness?

4. Do you think that Daniher was a teaching and development coach and developed our players to their maximum ability?

5. Whilst criticising Craig Cameron have you looked to his relative performance against other clubs? Have you considered the scope and funding of our (his) recruiting resources compared to others and the impact that this could have on results?

If you've done these things good on you but you've certainly kept your findings to yourself. If you haven't considered these things then I'd invite you to do so. If you can't be bothered considering them that's fine, just don't expect many to take your opinions seriously.

Selecting a player is only the start of developing a list and a "gun".

Nasher is right. There is an area between "best" and "worst". Craig's fans probably over rate him and others like you under rate him. Personally I don't mind where people sit as long as they base there positions on fact. Nudge didn't which is why I corrected him.

People learn much more by listening than talking.

It's interesting to note you have close to 2000 posts while I have about 50.

[Jarka 767]

Jarka your position on Craig Cameron is well known to anyone who has the energy to read Demonland. In fact it's like a broken record and your preparedness to come out swinging any time his name is mentioned is just plain boring. You're not the only one who does this, but sadly it makes Demonland a boring read.

You'll point out that I don't have to read it and you're right. And guess what, I don't usually but I do read some of the threads on list management because I think it is a difficult and interesting area. It's also an area that the mug supporter (broadly - one who doesn't work in the pointy end of an AFL football department) can try and understand.

I've seen other debates you've been in on this topic and it seems your mind is made up.

As far as I'm concerned that's fine but I'd invite you to consider a couple of other things in your consideration of our current list and your crusade of consigning Craig Cameron to the waste paper basket:

1. Do you think players automatically reach their potential without development once they've reached a club?

2. Do you think we've had the financial resources of other clubs to physically and mentally develop our players?

3. Do you think it is coincidence that Collingwood have the best drilled team in the league and have massively increased their player welfare budget in recent years including yearly trips to the United States to develop leadership and fitness?

4. Do you think that Daniher was a teaching and development coach and developed our players to their maximum ability?

5. Whilst criticising Craig Cameron have you looked to his relative performance against other clubs? Have you considered the scope and funding of our (his) recruiting resources compared to others and the impact that this could have on results?

If you've done these things good on you but you've certainly kept your findings to yourself. If you haven't considered these things then I'd invite you to do so. If you can't be bothered considering them that's fine, just don't expect many to take your opinions seriously.

Selecting a player is only the start of developing a list and a "gun".

Nasher is right. There is an area between "best" and "worst". Craig's fans probably over rate him and others like you under rate him. Personally I don't mind where people sit as long as they base there positions on fact. Nudge didn't which is why I corrected him.

People learn much more by listening than talking.

It's interesting to note you have close to 2000 posts while I have about 50.

All very interesting but I wasn't the one labeling kids who are struggling to play consistent footy as being guns, or did you miss the part? Perhaps you just saw my name and didn't bother reading the content, already made your mind up on what I had to say?

You've got your opinion and I'm happy to debate the issue with you, afterall this is a footy forum and the point is to debate the topics and issues of the day. If we all agreed with each other it would get pretty boring very quickly.

Back to the topic...we have a list without a standout replacement for Neitz. Ditto in the ruck with Jeff White. We're also desperate for a CHF, and our two key defensive roles are currently filled by a couple of kids (in terms of playing experience). We have a midfield that is one paced, lacks genuine speed and a star to take the game by the scruff of the neck. We seriously lack leadership all around the ground.

Now you may be happy with our current position, I probably have a different attitude though. But I'm amazed that you're willing to dismiss CAC's responsibility to our current plight considering he was in charge of recruiting for a decade and list management for the last 5. Was he soley responsible? Hell no, obviously. What I find amusing though is the way he is considered a god by so many here (yourself included?). I reckon all you have to do to please some of our members is to occasionally visit the board and post every six months or so.

I guess some people are just easily pleased, good for you.

Edit: to answer your questions look at the kangaroos. They have less than what we have, finances, training facilities etc. Look at what they've achieved compared to us, even this year. What you're saying is just an excuse, that's all. But if it where true then we might as well pack up and give up right now, because we will never be able to financially compete against the rest of the competition. I obviously prefer to aim my expectations higher than yourself, I'm just glad you're not in charge of the team because with an attitude liek yours we'd go absolutely no where.

Thank god you've only got 50 posts, I reckon I'd be desperate to slash my wrists if I was forced to read any more.

[Rogue 585]

We ALL thought we were good enough to have a crack at it over 2005-2007...

We did?

I only signed up in May '06, but I know there were others who agreed that we weren't in the hunt after the '06 season.

People learn much more by listening than talking.

It's interesting to note you have close to 2000 posts while I have about 50.

Talking about making simple assumptions without much depth, you've given us an example here!

[Little Goffy 14,451]

I truly feel sorry for the tigers.. they are in 4 a really tough time..

Frawley (never will be anything, just looks very average at best!), Dunn, MOLAN, Newton (may be JUST ok), Sylvia, Bell, Neville, Miller, Wheatley, Grgic, Williams.. plus many more..

Most of them 1st-2nd round picks...JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH..

Notice they are all similiar types.. not tall enough for KPP not quick enough for real Midfielders..

Our list is what it is PURELY thanx 2 1 man!! not ND, but Mr Cameron.. He is totally 2 blame!!

Cant wait to see what prendergast & co can do..

Although even CAC could go past Naitanui.. Could he???

Can't wait till the end of the year to say by bye 2: Dunn, Whealey, Bell, Yze, Sylvia (trade), Jamar, Buckley (could be ok if disposal wasn't so bad), Miller, Holland (good servant, should of played more, esp this year), Carroll (would stay if we werent rebuilding) Whelan and more..

This is the yaer for the true cleanout.. FINALLY!!

Ho hum.

Gee it's fun to have a go, isn't it?

I was gonna write a full rebuttal with draft analysis and comparison, but stuff it. W've done pretty well with drafts in the last few years, though we had a bit dip around 01. Molan and Smith were mistakes in the end, as much through peristent injury, if that can be called a recruiter's mistake so be it.

And if anyone dares to say "look at who we could've had after that pick" I'll make a point of abusing every post they make for a month - that kind of idiotic illogical garbage just gives me the prize $#^#s.

And Yze? You're kidding that you think CAC was anything to do with his selection, right? And you know what, for a mid-first-round selection from the early 90's, he hasn't been a bad contributor, what with the hundreds of games and goals, regular placings in the B&F, All Australian selection and so forth.

[youami 54]

We're last on the ladder. If it's not the recruitment bloke or the coach who should we blame. Maybe it's the bootstudders fault. It could be argued CAC has had more success in recruiting since 2003, or is it because the players are yet to hit maturity and it's more difficult to judge.

CAC's best pick must be Scott Thompson, he left, and is now a superstar of the game. Is the reason for his success his new club? I dont think so, he was very important for Melbourne before breaking his leg.

In recruiting I think you need to get more right than wrong, where they were picked is irrelevant. The good recruits are the Goodes', the Simon Blacks, Paul Chapman etc. We have none. Our team is very very very very very poor. I dont see one player on our list that will ever be in the top 5 to 10 players in the league. So in my opinion the star that we are craving is not on our list yet.

PS, only 2 number 1 draft picks have ever played in a premiership, Des Headland and Drew Banfield. So I dont want to hear crap about you need good draft picks, coz you dont, you need good recruiters, and you need good list management. We have had neither.

[Eastie Boyz 0]

The point you make about #1 picks is a bit silly. If you think about how many players win premierships in general you'd probably find that's probably not a bad success rate for a particular draft pick

[Little Goffy 14,451]

Of about 80 picks a year, one (obviously) is pick one.

22 players a year play in a premiership. Which, eventually, works out to one in four (22 in 80) players, putting aside the statistical problems of repeats.

So, 2 number 1 draft picks to play in premierships would probably be a little low on the scale, over a decade and a half. Expecially considering the number of later picks which wouldn't have even played in a game, you'd expect a top pick to be more likely, rather than less. Of course, it's also an argument for 'crap teams actually stay crap'. This applies to Richmond and Carlton only. Obviously not Melbourne.

I wonder which pick has played in the mos premiershipst? We should trade players to get as many as possible of that pick !!

[Rogue 585]

So, 2 number 1 draft picks to play in premierships would probably be a little low on the scale, over a decade and a half. Expecially considering the number of later picks which wouldn't have even played in a game, you'd expect a top pick to be more likely, rather than less. Of course, it's also an argument for 'crap teams actually stay crap'. This applies to Richmond and Carlton only. Obviously not Melbourne.

I think you're probably on the right track with your latter statement.

[45HG 1,539]

Over the course of history, the most amount of players to win a premiership wouldn't have been draft picks at all, but rather ended up at their team as a result of the zone system.

We need to get zone players then, they're the most successful

[Rogue 585]

Over the course of history, the most amount of players to win a premiership wouldn't have been draft picks at all, but rather ended up at their team as a result of the zone system.

We need to get zone players then, they're the most successful

Considering Distance Demon looked at the last 15 years, your point is (mostly) moot...

[phoenix 32]

All very interesting but I wasn't the one labeling kids who are struggling to play consistent footy as being guns, or did you miss the part? Perhaps you just saw my name and didn't bother reading the content, already made your mind up on what I had to say?

I guess some people are just easily pleased, good for you.

Jarka you were the one who said "Yeah, gee thanks CAC for the list of absolute champions we currently have".

I was responding to that and trying to help you understand that our lack of champions is not the fault of one person. Thankfully it seems you've finally caught on ("Was he soley responsible? Hell no, obviously) so we may get a more thoughtful analysis from you if this topic come up again.

It shows you're learning. Well done and keep up the good work.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I won't reply to everything because we could just go around in circles, I just wanted to point out that you've forgotten the year when we picked up Johnstone. We had pick 1 & 2, we traded 2 for White (who was a number 1 pick in his own right so no matter how you look at it it counts as 2 top 6 picks) so that makes 5 top 6 picks, TJ, White, McLean, Sylvia & Morton.

So what was that again about being wrong? Try again....

Did CAC select Trav? Didn't he join our recruiters from 98 onwards? I've always understood Trav was the last year BEFORE CAC took over. Happy to be corrected by whoever has the info.

Morton?!! You're expecting Morton to have an effect on CAC's last ten years?!! He never even played a game while CAC was at the club?

And don't quote Jeff White at me. He was traded for, that's not the same as bottoming out. I'm talking about the difference between getting rid of quality picks and players you already have on your list versus getting a #1 pick without having to give anything up. There's a huge difference...

But then I wouldn't expect you to answer any of my points they way they were constructed.

This discussion has clearly sailed way over your head. And who cares anymore? Demonland is starting to get inundated with this crap lately... abuse of former administrators and players for our currently bad on-field performance. But you keep flying the flag Jarka... It's noble work you're doing.

[DeeMfc 621]

As a matter of interest, who did Freo take with the #2 pick we traded to them in the White deal ?

[DeeMfc 621]

Not sure how to post a link

But go to - www.thedrafter.net/all_drafts/index.asp

It gives a performance ranking on all clubs since '98.

Hope it helps with a subject that has too many grey areas.

Cheers DeeMfc