Ash35

As I stated in my original post, I don't really have an issue with the Kangaroos Football Club. Yes, they have done well to finish top 4 this year... yadda yadda yadda My main problem was with guys like Andrew Maher, Kevin Bartlett and many others in the media that claim every time the Kangaroos have a win that is even remotely fighting or against the odds, that the Shineboner Spirit shone through and helped get them over the line. I know some Kangaroos supporters that agree with me and hate the Shineboner Spirit concept. So my main beef is with the morons in the media that promote this mythical force. As Bring-Back-Powell says, they are just another club, who has good wins and bad losses like every other team in the AFL. But the Roos seem to get to have their cake, and to eat it too. I don't think you can have it both ways. Don't claim they have some extra special bond or fighting spirit when they win, cos when they lose a game they should win, or get thrashed, it makes a mockery of the whole thing.

Not bitter. As I said, I don't hate the club. Just the way the media and some of their supporters try to peddle the Shinboner spirit propaganda onto the football world. It's a convinient theory when they win, but you never heard about it when they get pants like they did on Sunday. And as my original post shows, recently they seem to show very little "spirit" when it counts most, in finals.

You from Mars?

Anyone that knows me will know that one of my biggest pet hates in footy, is the crap that gets spruked about the "Shinboner Spirit". Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Kangaroos footy club, and the bloke they hailed as the Shinboner of the Century in Glen Archer, is an absolute star of the game. But it's more the media and the odd Kangaroos supporter I have my beef with, when they start crapping on about the Shineboner spirit. Every club has great against the odds wins, and if you ask every supporter, they will tell you they their club is great for many different reasons. But for some reason, the Kangaroos seem to get more credit than most for any fighting performance. Anyway, to illustrate my point that the Shinboner Spirit is a myth, all you have to do is look back at the Kangaroos record in finals going back as far as 2000. Now I reckon finals would be the time that you put everything on the line, and if ever there would be some spirit shown, September would be the time to do it. Since their last flag in 1999, the Kangaroos have played 6 finals, for 1 win and 5 losses. That's not all that great, but it's the size of losses that highlight the lack of fight shown by the Shinboners. Their one win was against Hawthorn in 2000 by 10 points. Their losses have been : 2000 Qualifying Final vs Essendon by 125 points 2000 Preliminary Final vs Melbourne by 50 points 2002 Elimination Final vs Melbourne by 38 points 2005 Elimination Final vs Port Adelaide by 87 points 2007 Qualifying Final vs Geelong by 106 points. That's an average losing margin of 81 points. And all of these finals were played in Melbourne. It wasn't like they had to go over to Subiaco or AAMI stadium. They were all played at the MCG except for the 2005 final against Port, which was at Docklands. And they have conceded some massive scores in these finals as well. Essendon 31.12 - 198 Melbourne 23.18 - 156 Melbourne 18.14 - 122 Port Adel 26.8 - 164 Geelong 23.18 - 156 So in summing up, the whole concept of the Shinboner Spirit annoys me. I mainly blame the media, and to a lesser extent, some supporters and occasionally Dean Laidley when he spits it out. But lets face it, with performances like this when it counts most, surely the whole thing is a myth.

Yeah, and Walls was the only judge to give Paddy Ryder any votes. Go figure. He hates Essendon more than Melbourne.

2007 NAB AFL Rising Star voting 1. Joel Selwood (Geelong) 44 2. Scott Pendlebury (Collingwood) 37 3. Nathan Jones (Melbourne) 17 4. Justin Westhoff (Port Adelaide) 10 5. Shannon Hurn (West Coast ) 9 6. Jess Smith (Kangaroos) 7 7. Bryce Gibbs (Carlton) 6 8. Tom Williams (Western Bulldogs) 2 8. Patrick Ryder (Essendon) 2 10. Martin Clarke (Collingwood) 1

It was a great goal, but wasn't even nominated that week [Rd 19]. Dean Cox won that week from Nathan Brown and Nathan Foley. All of my selections were from the offical MOTY & GOTY nominations from the AFL website. Hence Franklin and Yze etc don't get a mention.

Yep, it's a massive flaw in the system. You don't want to go up against a Leon Davis goal or Anthony Rocca mark, no matter how much better your nomination is. As good as Newtons mark was against the Kangas, he shared the Round 16 nomination with Brent Staker with 41% of the vote. So a vote or two the other way, and both Yzes goal and Newtons mark wouldn't have even been in the running. That to me is reason to change the voting system next year.

I realise that the finals are included in both of these awards, but with only four nominations left, I wanted to get the ball rolling. My top 6 so far : MARKS Rd 3 - M.McVeigh [Ess] vs Carlton Rd 9 - J.Brown [bris] vs Collingwood Rd 15 - P.Chapman [Geel] vs Collingwood Rd 16 - M.Newton [Melb] vs Kang, B.Staker [WCE] vs Syd - joint nom 41% of the vote each Rd 17 - A.Edwards [Kang] vs Hawthorn Rd 19 - T.Croad [Haw] vs Brisbane No real standouts. Newton, McVeigh and Chapman were spectacular high marks, but I get the feeling big Johnno Brown will win with his amazingly courageous mark against the Pies at the Gabba in Round 9. GOALS Rd 1 - R.Robertson [Melb] vs St Kilda Rd 5 - Alwyn Davey [Ess] vs Collingwood Rd 6 - D.Headland [Frem] vs Brisbane Rd 13 - D.Motlop [Port] vs Brisbane Rd 15 - D.Pearce [Port] vs WCE Rd 20 - M.Lloyd [Ess] vs Carlton Plenty of great goals. Aaron Davey vs Carlton Rd 14, Fevola vs St Kilda Rd 17 & Dustin Fletchers big bastard bomb vs the Saints in Rd 4 were all close to my top 6. Any of the top six would be worthy of winning, but Daniel Pearces effort against WCE at AAMI stadium in Round 15 just in front. Thoughts?

That's true during the regular season. But seeing Newton was reported representing Melbourne, I doubt he'd get away with serving the suspension for Sandringham seeing as Melbournes season is finished. So I would guess that he could play for Sandringham this year, and serve his suspension for Melbourne next season.

There is a difference between someone "playing on him" and TJ actually having an opponent. Obviously playing half back suited TJ yesterday, but he won't always have that sort of freedom. I noted with interest the stats in this mornings paper. TJ : 42 possessions - 10 clangers Heath Scotland : 41 possessions - 1 clanger

I think he is in trouble, but I've given up trying to predict the outcomes of reports. As to whether he is eligible for Sandy if suspended, I would think he has to serve his suspension for Melbourne, so he might be alright to play for Sandringham, but would miss early Melbourne games next season.

How the hell is Kreuzer in this team? At what stage did Melbourne recieve the No.1 pick in the draft?

There is a reason that Kepler is out of favour at Essendon, and it's because he's no bloody good. And how does Melbourne get pick 3? Win against Carlton and you have pick 4, lose to the Blues, and you get pick 2. And how did Essendon get pick 5? Did we already do a trade with Fremantle or the Bulldogs to gain this selection? Without picks 3 & 5, your plan doesn't work.

I actually completely agree with you. Carlton have set the pace by putting Thornton and Fevola in cotton wool for the year. Apparently James McDonalds injury happened at training. The Empire strikes back!!!

Congratulations Jack, you are a true visionary. Didn't mean to steal your thunder champ. Here's a little mini merge for you, with this from my thread spelling out clearly the point you were making : A Melbourne loss gives picks : Melb : 2, 18, 20 Rich : 1, 17, 19 Carl : 3, 21 A Melbourne win : Melb : 4, 20 Rich : 2, 17, 18 Carl : 1, 3, 19 While it's obvious Carlton have more to lose by winning, Melbournes draft position is still significantly better if it doesn't win. No Melbourne supporter should really want to win this match.

I'll start by saying I actually don't think teams, or players, tank. But if there is any sort of doubt as to whether it's in a teams best interest not to win a game, it's much easier to lose against a team that is actually trying to win. But what happens if both teams are in the same boat? What if both teams gain a massive benefit from losing, in what in the scheme of things, looks to be a meaningless game of football. Everyone knows what is at stake in Round 22 for Melbourne and Carlton. A major reward for the team that loses. I think it will be fascinating to watch. Have Carlton already signalled their intentions by resting Brendan Fevola for the rest of the season. Lets assume Carlton don't upset the Kangaroos this week, and Melbourne don't beat Freo at Subiaco. If Carlton wins Round 22 : The ladder will be : 14. Carlton 20 15. Melbourne 16 16. Richmond 10 Draft order will be : 1. Richmond 2. Melbourne 3. Carlton 17. Richmond 18. Melbourne 19. Richmond 20. Melbourne 21. Carlton If Melbourne wins Round 22 : The ladder will be : 14. Melbourne 20 15. Carlton 16 16. Richmond 10 Draft order will be : 1. Carlton 2. Richmond 3. Carlton 4. Melbourne 17. Richmond 18. Richmond 19. Carlton 20. Melbourne So in summing up, a Melbourne loss gives picks : Melb : 2, 18, 20 Rich : 1, 17, 19 Carl : 3, 21 A Melbourne win : Melb : 4, 20 Rich : 2, 17, 18 Carl : 1, 3, 19 I will be watching the very last home and away game this season with great interest.

From an Essendon supporters point of view, and I realise the tribunal doesn't use past cases as a bench mark, but if Matthew Lloyds "bump" on Nathan Carroll at 3/4 time in Round 13 was worth one match, Johnson is surely looking at 4 or 5 games. The AFL are red hot on stamping out these sorts of front on bumps that can cause serious injuries. I saw the Jason Roe incident differently. I thought it was clearly a case were both players were going for the ball, and one just got there a milli-second earlier than the other. Whereas Ben Johnson was never really going for the ball, and while I doubt he wanted to put Bell on a stretcher, his actions were very reckless and dangerous.

Not sure why the announcement was made when it was. Perhaps they were trying to lift the club and players for a run at the finals. A bit of a "do it for Sheedy and Hird" type thing, although it looks like it has back fired with the club looking as unstable as it's been for years. I don't think Voss was a factor, as the club has said since that they don't want someone without any coaching experience. Perhaps both Thompson & Williams have been "head hunted" for a while, but I just can't see either of them leaving their current posts to come to Essendon. Essendon aren't a Premiership contender in the near future. Why leave clubs who are? My number one choice is Mark Harvey, but he looks set to be Fremantles coach. After that, I'll just leave it up to the board to hopefully select the best candidate.

It's a f*ckin disgrace. No respect showed to Watson from his coach, soon to be ex-coach. Even if he does come in for Hird, it's crap. Watson has easily been our best midfielder this year and last. Leads us in clearances and hard ball gets. Why even play this stupid selection game? We're 11th playing 2nd last. Hird declares yesterday he won't play, yet they come out and pick him. Who are they trying to fool? Hille dropped is stupid. His rucking has been outstanding at times this year. And Peverill may also come back in if a couple of blokes drop out, but he doesn't deserve to be dropped either. Sheedy said after Freo last week, we virtually can't make the finals so he has no choice but to play the kids. Yet brings in Camporeale and Mark Johnson. I don't understand what's going on with my club at the moment. We seemed to have lost the plot since the Sheedy announcement. Don't even get me started with the fantasy talk about trying to poach either Mark Thompson or Mark Williams to coach. As if those guys would consider leaving their current positions to come to Essendon. It just a waste of time and energy which would be better used trying to find the best canditate that is AVAILABLE.

Sad news indeed. Condolences to the family. Word is that Mick might not coach on friday night, a final decision hasn't been made yet. Guy McKenna will take over if Mick decides not to coach against Melbourne.

It's not a bad point, and I'm a massive Riewoldt fan. But it depends on needs. Essendon need an A-Grade mid fielder, whereas with Lloyd and Lucas in the side, a key forward isn't as important. I think Melbourne need both. Jones, McLean and McDonald provide some grunt, with TJ being the only real silk. I would think Dal Santo would fit in there nicely. As would Riewoldt, but you can only pick one.

I must admit he looked very good is a losing team against Geelong on Saturday. I knew very little about him before the weekend, but he looks Ok.

Essendons needs are a little different. Our midfield is poor, and while our backline is ok, with Fletcher and Micheal the wrong side of 30, that could do with some help. Adel - B.Rutten [best full back, can always do with a player like him] Bris - J.Brown [TGNTT - too good not to take, although Power would suit us as well] Carl - M.Murphy [great young prospect] Coll - S.Pendleburt [see above] Frem - M.Pavlich [TGNTT] Geel -G.Ablett Jnr [would give our midfield a lift] Haw - J.Lewis [i'm a fan of him, not so much a fan of Franklin] Kang - B.Harvey [has pace] Melb - Either J.Rivers or B.McLean [your best defender and midfielder] Port - C.Cornes [TGNTT] Rich - Probably Deledio StKil - N.Dal Santo [their best mid] Syd - Not sure, pretty even team. Perhaps A.Goodes. WCE - C.Judd [TGNTT] WB - A.Cooney [has pace]

Add Dal Santo, and the likes of Brock and TJ might get freed up. Brock is struggling with a heavy tag ATM, as has TJ in the past.