Biffen

Not me Ernie. I am escaping worldly desires, not seeking them old man.

Wrong . Oil was controlled globally despite Americas attempts to stop the Rockefeller monopoly. The British built the Suez and offered for sale a large portion of the Suez to the Egyptian government which they rejected. The British offered Palestine the right to control its borders in 1948. They rejected this offer and the right to issue passports and a shared space with Israel. Other Middle Eastern states have instability due to religious schisms. The British bought control of the Suez and Panama. A little Greek man named Onassis helped the USA out with his oil tankers and that is the basics of how the West controls international oil supply and numerous governments. The Middle East and the gulf had no use for oil , nor a market, nor any refining knowledge.Standard oil and the British certainly did and whilst the deal looks unfair one has to view it in the historical context in which it was drawn up.

I wouldn't question the heart of an Empirical system or see history as anything but the emergence of new ideas and knowledge eventually dominating those cultures less advanced in objective Science. The big winner of Ww1 was America, the real winner of the Cold War was in fact China . I argue not that it is necessarily preferable to be born in a British Colony, it is an extreme bit of luck for those born in it. I think the freedoms of Western civilisation are its benefits but I can enjoy the conversation without discussing race as we are actually talking about the melding and interaction of culture when we discuss history.

Your lack of genuine understanding is exceeded only by your noble ability to obfuscate it. You have a tendency to ignore the facts in favour of turning everything into the Jerry Springer show. The British Empire subjugated the Middle East and controlled it's waters,and its spices and drugs. America now controls these waters and the flow of its oil, which is the primary reason The Ottoman Empire is imploding as it question its Bedouin belief systems by comparison.

Neither of you make a cogent point about the discussion which addresses European colonialism and Ottoman imperialism. Im not discussing either Aboriginal genocide nor communism/ fascism nor race. Dieter and Stu, you make a mockery of the Ottoman Empire by describing it as a race. It was a clllection of Sultans and Tribes , fiefdoms and cleptocracies forced to submit to Istanbul which was of course once Greek, as was Optmetry, which I will point out for the edification of Choke. If you can add something to the discussion without using the R word we may have a decent discussion about history and conquest.

I am not working in an official capacity Moon . Rest assured the Gat will be under the command of a lieutenant . Bitters will not be allowed near the place until he pays his outstAnding accounts with the various traders contained therein.

Yours truly is off to Indochine for a sabbatical . I will be lying low in a village of sympathetic mercenaries , reading T.S.Eliot and eating lychees. I look forward to sending you all some communique from the dense jungle through my minions so please be aware that some of my missives may be badly translated and this is in no way due to a ready supply of opiates and cheap beer, but rather that my translator has a pronounced nervous tick from repeated beatings.

Good point Dieter. It was not just the British colonising the world. What the British and French colonisers did bring was a court system and the bare bones of a judiciary, based on a presumption of fairness and liberty. Ethan is correct in his statement that you could freely purchase a woman or girl in Istanbul in 1908. Now you can be betrothed to a teen from Lebanon,without her say in 2017! Apart Sufic knowledge and tradition which was suppressed ,does the Moorish tradition include Copernicus,Newton,Galileo and Michelangelo ? There is this myth that persists about Islamic culture giving birth to some enlightening process but I can assure you the Mosque teaches the Koran only . They never delve into politics- ask any Imam today. The murder and ransacking of Christians, Berbers,Jews,Moors and Farsi cutlires in the Ottomans persisted for centuries.The Greeks were Ottoman slaves until British intervention. Slavery still exists today as much as it ever did but you'll find it in Muslim counties and in Asia- it's actually a big part of Islam . Theft,conquest and violent retribution are a part of the mythology of the Arabic countries."Ali Baba" for example . So is the complete subjugation of women, corporal and capital punishment. Instead of feeling white guilt about colonisation , have a look at the historical traits each Empire offered. Europeans in the Dark age evolved. Islam has not evolved and many of its followers wish it to go backwards. India would be Muslim without Britain splitting it .They would have killed the Hindus and Christians there too. We would be French if La Perouse was better armed than Captain Cook. Not only were Arab traders less advanced- they still are today which is why you can expect these tin pot kingdoms in the Middle East to crumble and for Islam to keep splitting itself in this process the west has already experienced in Christianity that we know as enlightenment . Islams war is playing out in front of our eyes but it's not my fault I can assure you.Its not Americas,or Btitains or yours or mine . It is a culture coming from the actual Dark ages into the light that is splitting Islam and its " institutions". So yes, Islam would still be in the dark ages were it not going through this questioning of itself which we can view as a reformation , an enlightenment or the destruction of useless 8th century superstition.

This has no relevance to the discussion. You are talking about constitutional existence and we are discussing the wonders of the Ottoman empire.

Choke, Most of the progress in Astronomy , Physics, Mathematics you speak of were not in fact Muslim or Ottoman but Sumerian and later Greek.Later European. Dieter, the freedoms the Christians endured were not without significant loss of life. You have both used trite arguments that neglect Ottoman slavery,conquest and destruction of other cultures .

Most of my best life choices are made under sleep deprivation due to my nocturnal activities. Bernie may change his mind after a good kip.

Makes a slight change from the year Howe and Frawley made giant beer snakes in Bay 13 on national TV on Boxing Day , even as impressively constructed as they were.

Max Gawn to step up on his opponents heads.

Im excited to get a few extra kgs of Weed.

How G Lyon can be left out is a bit of a mystery to me. But it does say favourite and maybe he is out of favour but he is probably one of our top ten players ever .

Robbie Lyon Ox Stynes Farmer Jakovich Healy Yze Jeff White N Jones

He played Reserves as Coach as well (post Firsts) but you were probably a soft as butter player who wouldn't like his efficient style. Barassi had him in the Reserves as well more likely for disciplinary reasons. Disposals meant nothing in the backline in those days. Some of the most creative bits of play were never given a stat (Harmes slap that won a GF whether in or out). He was superb in the air and a very good kick. I'd put him above Febey. Revisionist stats here are useless the further back we go in time. Forwards fumbled the ball if he was in the area out of pure fear.

The Banyule School was a fairly unorthodox group Earl-they used only stolen paint, most of their canvasses were in fact trains or large walls.

I have a question. Is the place kick still a legitimate way to have a shot for goal?

Paella in Mornington with Farah Fawcett ? You sick bastard.

Great team Macca. I would have Grinter in any team ,one of the first picked because he struck fear into opponents. He was also a highly skilled player. Steve Stretch maybe on the list somewhere too for his run . Toddles was a bit of a butcher although he was a great competitor every time.

I always but their clothes. Their Spring collection is adorable.

I remember it well. All this carry on in Christchurch when we still have to deal with the aftermath of our own natural disasters. The struggle continues ....

I suppose Elwood will be filled with the Debris and refuse, washed down from St Kilda,as always.

And the Dog is rarely seen on the porch.