Undeeterred

War and Peace isn't even in the same league as "In Search of Lost Time" (Proust)

Facts never stopped Rangie before, why start now?

It seems it's sacrilege around here to suggest J. Trengove is slow. So I'll stop doing it.

Meanwhile ya'll go on deluding yourselves about it, creating a fictitious injury that he doesn't have.

I don't think you'll find, of the vast weight of posters who disagree with you, not one has suggested he isn't slow.

Undeeterred..an apt name.

What have i said that is so "out there"?

In 2012 Jack Trengove has no pace and struggles to kick longer than 30-35 metres.

How many times has he kicked into the man on the mark??

I saw it. You saw it. It is what it is.

I am asking why. I am not burning him.

No need to be rude btw.

Go back and read your posts on this thread. You start off by getting stuck in to Trengove on a very general basis, probably because Range Rover was. Then, when the discussion changes tack towards Trengove being slow, you say that its not about him having a lack of support, it is about him having a lack of pace.

Utterly inconsistent.

And I wasn't being rude, I was merely pointing this out.

Rob Mac......, on 26 August 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

Agreed!

I've no idea whether it's psychological, or a little undisclosed injury, but he was better last year & I suspect the reason he wasn't dropped for a bit this year was because of the captaincy. Poor decision not to give him a run in the two's, it worked well for others this year. (I also wouldn't have made him captain so young.)

Undeterred, Your quoting of me is (possibly unintentionally) unfair.

In my post you quoted, I clearly agreed solely with Range Rover saying that "He's been one of our worst players over the course of the season." You yourself said, "The fact that he can't kick 35m and can hardly run at the moment (is not because he is cr@p)." ..but Undeeterred, while you "can't kick 35m and can hardly run" you ARE at least somewhat cr@p (in spite of many other admirable efforts) which is how Trengrove's been this season, right?

Previously he was fine & hopefully next year too, plus he seems a great fellow who's development has been put under much strain this year. I like him & wasn't suggesting his delisting

Sorry to include you in the Peanut Gallery with RR and WYL.

I can see what you're saying.

I just don't think that he has been that bad. He's right up there in most of our key midfielder stats, and in my view has dealt with the captaincy really well. It is obvious if you watch him closely that he is working his guts out and doing lots of things that people don't notice. I do agree that he has obviously been labouring, which means he is (1) not running as quickly or (2) not kicking with as much penetration as he usually would.

But you have to view these things as a whole, and I don't think those particular (temporay) limitations overshadow the fact that he has actually had a pretty good season. It is easy to pinpoint 1 kick that doesn't make the distance, or 1 chase where he can't go, while ignoring the 20 other times he touches the ball in a game.

People wish to know why he has no pace, it's not a matter of lacking support.

Are you actually a goldfish who has somehow learned how to type, but, being a goldfish, forgets what he has said 10 minutes ago?

Why is my comment any more outlandish than the the throng of people on here who opine that he has OP when they have no proof to that effect

You mean, other than the fact that he can't move, all of a sudden?

If he was genuinely slow, he would have played like Brock McLean as an 18 year old.

I've no doubt he does. I also don't believe he is injured.

I can see why some posters desperately want him to be though. The thought that he isn't is quite unpalatable.

I think you'll see, if you review the objective evidence available, that he has been one of our most consistent players all year.

But of course, sweeping generalisations and mindless repititions of a base statement are easy. Properly analysing the evidence and realising it doesn't support your case is what is unpalatable.

.

While I have been a long-time advocate of us chasing him, I've realised we'd need to offer him $2mil to come to Melbourne.

Then again, so might Carlton and GWS, the way they are going!

People can believe that and 'note' it all they like. Fact is Trengove has played every game this year. Never 'rested' once due to soreness or injury.

Why? Because he's not injured.

I did put the 'load' qualifier on that, which is the other reason that most sensible people have put forward for his physical condition.

How else do you explain loss of speed and kicking length? Especially so in a guy who 2-3 years ago was noted for both.

I'd argue that he has been relatively effective regardless, which is borne out by the evidence I posted. You didn't bother to try to refute any of it.

It is easy to just run a thread potting a player with nothing to support you other than 'Gee, he is slow', but to me it looks like you just pushing your usual agendas.

Frawley isn't the problem and Biffen is right - the way that it comes in, straight up the guts and quick smart, doesn't give him a lot of chance.

I honestly think the best thing for the whole club at the moment will be to drop the footies, go and get sh!tfaced together, have 3 weeks off, and forget all about 2012.

Can anyone explain why Jack Watts looks at least 10 kg lighter than last year - if anything, he should have bulked up even more this year, if we are to have big bodied players.

I'd suspect the answer is because they don't want him to end up as a 'big bodied player', but that's just a guess, given they have played him as a floating, rebounding half back all year. Not much point being built like Quentin Lynch if you are playing that role.

then please tell me why he has no pace and cannot kick 35 metres?

It is a serious problem in my eyes and in no way a go at his character.

I'm a firm believer that he is injured, as many people have noted on numerous threads previously. At worst, he is under a huge training load which will be beneficial in the long term. You don't just 'lose' pace (except when you get old, like me) and you don't just not be able to kick 35m all of a sudden.

While I'm at it, 7th in at MFC marks, 9th in goals, 4th in contested possessions and 6th in inside 50s. The only stat that surprised me was that he is 14th in 1%ers (whatever they are).

Yes, he's not immediately eye catching at the moment, but to say he is ineffective, or worse, that we should get rid of him, is flat out silly.

He's been one of our worst players over the course of the season. If he wasn't captain or a no.2 draft pick you'd be battling to come up with a reason to retain him. That's the truth of it.

I guess all we can do is write the year off as an aberration and hope he returns in 2013 a different player. I'm not sure he will tbh.

The 2nd best footballer in the country from 2009...Geez we can pick 'em can't we!!

Agreed!

I've no idea whether it's psychological, or a little undisclosed injury, but he was better last year & I suspect the reason he wasn't dropped for a bit this year was because of the captaincy. Poor decision not to give him a run in the two's, it worked well for others this year. (I also wouldn't have made him captain so young.)

Trengove is 3rd at our club for disposals this season, and 2nd in tackles. Obviously works hard both ways.

On top of this, he is the youngest captain in the history of the game. He has had to deal with probably one of the club's toughest years ever, and he is 20. He has come through that with flying colours and, if you disagree, watch the captain's speech from Foundation Heroes the other night.

The fact that he can't kick 35m and can hardly run at the moment is not because he is cr@p.

You three are absolutely kidding yourselves.

Get off his case, he'll be fine.

Not if we knock off Freo next week.

Sorry, just a little joke to make me feel better.

Jake Spencer, 6 tackles. 2 more than anybody else.

That says everything, both about his attitude and the rest of our team.

To be honest, that's all I really care about today's game - seeing Col have 34 against a top 4 side.

Go Col.

Oh, and Blease and Tappy seem to be getting a lot of it. That's hugely promising.

Can't watch, so only have the AFL Live app, but seems promising...

Sylvia 11 in the first, Nicho and Bail 8, Dunn seems to have a lot of it.

How is it looking?

Always great, too, to see Jakey Spencer at the top of our tackle count!!

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of turds.

I reckon Neeld will have pretty much sorted out his questions marks by now.

Minimum is 95% in the new CBA.

Right - didn't know that.

Nevertheless, regardless of what the minimum is, there will be a big gap between the '2012 Actual' and '2013 Possible' numbers...

Could you be a bit more precise as to how much a boatload is or are you just guessing?

I don't think you have a clue as to how much room we will have left in the salary cap next year.

My understanding is that the salary cap is $9.139 million next year. If we were paying 92.5%, as per this year, that's $8.45 mil.

Just bumping it up to 100% gives us almost $700k.

I know how simplistic that is, given we are signing new contracts which presumably take account of this, but I reckon ballpark it would be pretty close, especially given Green and probably Moloney's wages will be freed up too.

That (the MFC example) is a very specific response (which includes only one successful forward) to a general discussion point I raised - lift your eyes and try to think beyond the present. To give two examples, several years ago recruiters went for athletes and tried to make them footballers - it didn't work. Recruiters also ignored short players for several years, now that has changed. All I am saying is that football is constantly changing - we would not have had Ron Barassi if Norm Smith wasn't open to innovation (or the 1964 flag).

Nothing in football is set in concrete.

True, that was just the best example I could think of!

All I'm saying, and I stopped writing the post PSD just wrote about halfway through, was that its just so important to have those big guys.

And at the moment, only 1 is available, and he wont cost us anything except a pile of money we have to park somewhere, so might as well be him!

Through history very few clubs have won a flag by buying in an established big forward. Swans did it with Lockett but they built their entire forward line around him. I cant think of any that did it by buying two. We tried and it was a disaster with Moore and Templeton.

That's because most of them were smart enough to draft them when they were 18, or professional enough to develop them between 18-25, and didn't need to buy them in.