Macca

I'd like a 2nd opinion as I don't trust 1 poll only. As I said yesterday, people don't always tell the truth (for fear of embarrassing themselves) And the abuse could easily be a secondary reason or at least another reason on top of what they've said And further to the discussion into high contact free kicks, we have a pool of what, 40 or 50 umpires and they haven't been able to differentiate as yet what is high contact and what isn't high contact. Over decades? Is there even 1 umpire who can get it right most or all of the time on high contact frees? If the answer is no then they are either all incompetant at the same time or we have an issue with the actual high contact incidents and the adjudication of those incidents I'm heavily in favour of the latter argument rather than the former. All it needs is logic applied

I put most of it down to people in general not recognising that the sport cannot be umpired correctly If they came to terms with all the umpiring errors (that are going to happen by default) then they may not be concerned Some areas can be cleaned up somewhat ... full time umps and a clearer definition of the holding the ball area but even so, the grey areas will always reign supreme. As they always have. Probably since the mid 19th century But hey, I've got no chance of changing your mind and vice-versa. Nor does that bother me at all My default view on footy is just be the best team in terms of talent and coaching and then you probably won't ever worry about umpiring decisions Yeah but the ducking is subjective ... we've had this conversation before, Gonzo You believe the umpires can sort it out and I disagree. And my reasons are in a post above And don't you think that if the umps could sort it out that they would have done so by now?

And what about the drop-out rate for umpires once they take it up (more so outside of AFL level) How long do they last and what are the reasons as to why they give it away I'm tipping abuse and being intimidated would be right up there as the reasons

So here is a grey area that we won't be able to fix The highly contentious high contact free kick ... players duck, drop their knees, throw their heads back etc etc in order to milk the free kick. And every year the problem gets worse as more and more players are becoming adept at milking high contact And it all happens so fast that the umpires can't begin to be able to get the adjudication right. We often need 3 or 4 replays in order to work it out ourselves We could decide to not pay high contact free kicks (inless the neck/head area is targeted) but here's the issue with doing that ... the concussion protocols and issues with the head now being sacrosanct So we can't fix it even if we wanted to So we have to live with it. Complaining won't solve the problem Further to that, we probably see an example of high contact up to 30 times a game (either paid or not paid) The only possible fix (and it's an extreme long shot) is if they retrospectively ping the cheats and start handing out suspensions retrospectively. And that might number 100+ players in any given week And that's just one facet of the sport Good luck trying to fix it all of it

Yeah, that's your view, Gonzo. We don't all think the same way I can watch a game of footy and just take all the good with the bad. As a general rule, I block out all the stuff that might displease me. It's a chaotic sport, they'll almost certainly never go close with regards to fixing up all the grey areas (due to the nature of the sport) so you can either let it get to you or realise you have to live with it I do have the odd concern ... the need to have total respect towards umpires and the decisions that they make And hopefully, we are now going to have a swing in that direction. The game will be better for it So with regards to our team, I'm thoroughly enjoying our wins and the way that we are playing. And it's all about the hard work we are putting in. We are getting on with But you can view stuff any way you like, I'm not trying to change your mind (or the minds of others) ... if I was, I'd be here 24/7 quoting people hundreds of times a day

I don't share the same concerns

Yes Wrecker, our work rate is quite incredible It wasn't so long ago that we had a few players (in leadership roles) explaining that we needed to buy-in to the game plan!! We've come a long way from those days to a point where, as you correctly mentioned, we have not only totally bought into the game plan but we are doing the extra's These are the sorts of threads that we should see more of too. Our game plan being analysed correctly with selfless individual acts being highlighted Of the ones you mentioned the Sparrow effort was amazing. Tom is really coming on as a player. With so many top players in the team we have now got everyone getting in on the act. Pressure for spots improves a team It's out of our hands on how we keep everyone together and under the salary cap. That's for the list managers and bean-counters to figure out Big bright future It's good being a Demon supporter!

Well there's a bloke who seems to be able to escape the wrath of the tennis authorities Bring back Ash Barty!! I'm not so sure rjay The new ruling is going to be thrashed out and the clarity might arrive more quickly than we think Of course, if the player who raises his arms also lets out some form of abuse, we may not know what the 50 is for (as the players aren't mic'd up) ... unless we can hear what the umpire is saying At the ground, it could be like the VARS ruling in soccer (the punters left guessing) So there's a fair bit to play out but again, in principle, I agree with the new ruling as something needed to be done

No, it's you that is picking the fight and it's your rudeness that I'm reacting to Don't confuse a straight-forward mannerism with ill manners. You continually want to categorise people like me all because we might have a completely different point of view As I said to you yesterday, play the ball and not the man. Argue the facts and stop blaming the umpires. As an example, you're not going into bat against umpire abuse ... and you should be. Especially if you profess to be a fair-minded person Hey, your footy team will be able to overcome a few questionable decisions. It's all good

The amount of umpire discussion is way too much as compared to the actual game or games The game day threads and the 'Other Games' threads is absolutely dominated by umpire yap (and abuse) Totally disproportionate to the actual sport that we are witnessing. Not nearly enough about the opposition, the way our team is playing or any of the other teams for the matter Those threads are total whingefest's If you want to dispute what I'm saying go and have a read of those threads. And if you think that's ok, we're never going to agree Umpires don't decide games, talent levels and good coaching does (predominantly)

Very few talk that way though ... and you are certainly not one of those people I look forward to your contributions on the game day thread where you can highlight all the frees that the opposition should get and all the lucky frees that we get

There's been a few errors with regards to the new interpretation but it hasn't gone too far at all It's not a perfect world but if we get it mostly right in the end, we succeed. The end game is what is important here. The road to that end game is going to be bumpy I'm not a perfectionist therefore I factor in and allow for a few errors. I'm not going to be outraged about the umpires when factoring in that we follow a sport that is chaotic and full of grey areas Cause & effect rather than pointing at the A-end of a problem is my motto So if we always had more respect for umpires and were prepared to accept the errors that are made, this type of conversation wouldn't exist in the same way We might actually be yapping about the actual game

You make it look like I'm the only one who has taken up a stance in favour of umpire respect And the article doesn't really support your view ... did you even read it? The article actually highlighted how things have got out of hand at suburban & junior level (which most should know about already if we're being honest) There's been an overreaction which has quickly turned into outrage ... take a chill pill Your thinking is antiquated. Get with the program, dc. We live in a different world where workplace bullying and respect all round is now recognised. Finally And to further emphasise that point, we've now got an Australia-wide womens league and that league might be able to lead the way with regards to umpire respect. I hope so, anyway These people (the umpires) are just trying to do their best in a sport which is impossible to adjudicate correctly. Why punish them the way we do? It's so unfair The answer is don't back-chat, don't remonstrate, get on with it and play your best And I agree with others that frivolous reactions shouldn't be penalised. But as previously stated, there will be teething problems. There always is with new rulings

I came to terms with different umpires interpreting different decisions within the same games long ago. I reckon every umpire would see the chaotic sport of footy slightly differently from the next (full time umpires could alleviate that issue - somewhat) But my attitude is that I could let the inconsistencies bother me or go the other way and take the good with the bad. Decades ago, I went the other way I am also one of the few people who will (within games) recognise the lucky free kicks that we receive along with the free kicks that the opposition should have received And if anyone attempted to do what I do (for say a month or so) they might see the game in a whole new light The game is a chaotic one, with grey areas left, right and centre. The umpires do the best they can, they aren't biased, they never cheat, they don't hate us and they don't favour any other teams For decades my philosophy has been that the club needed to build a great list of players ... only then could we win big. All the rest of it was faith, hope, trust and belief systems (and the blaming of umpires) ... no substance I based that thinking on watching the best of the best going about their business (year after year) ... we needed to do what those clubs were doing So that's what we've done (finally) By the way, the so-called favoured Bulldogs only received 13 free kicks in last year's GF Why? Because in my view, they were 2nd to the ball all game and therefore couldn't milk the free kicks. We monstered them in that area And their M.O. is to play in front and then milk frees ... they are very good at that aspect (a logical reason as to why they consistently lead the overall free kick count) But we didn't allow them to do so. We destroyed them in all areas of the game A very simple explanation but in my view, the truth So I don't blame umpires and therefore, I believe we should have the utmost respect for umpires. They are not the enemy, the other teams are Thus, I like the new ruling

All things considered a crowd of 60k-70k for next Sunday night against the Tigers could be seen as a very good or excellent result The game itself (the concept) is seen as our idea so we'll support the idea, H or A 2015 (A) 58,175 2016 (H) 60,867 2017 (A) 85,657 2018 (H) 77,071 2019 (A) 72,704 2021 (H) 56,418 (Covid effected) 2022 (A) ??,??? (Covid effected - still?) It's not our home game this time but as a blockbuster match-up, it's important to still get a bumper crowd Be nice if we could outnumber the Tiger fans so you never know I'll go with the trusty 66,666

In: Ben Brown Out: T-Mac or Weideman Another gutsy prediction!

Yep ... one things for sure, the next month will be an interesting watch with regards to what is deemed to be an indiscretion (and what isn't) Every week we'll have 9 games with a total of 27 umpires officiating. I'm not expecting perfection but I'm hoping they get it right most of the time with a view to getting it right 85% - 90% of the time by round 15 I'm tipping that it won't be an assault on the senses that others are forecasting. Brad Scott today said that the clubs had shown a really good response to the 5 examples shown to the clubs so we'll soon find out We've got the Tigers and they don't seem to mind giving away a free kick (-38 on the free kick differential) ... but how are they at reacting to those free kicks given away? We might get a few freebies!

That's the tricky bit ... in a post above I indicated that the grey area has to be minimal and that small portion of grey area possibly could see the benefit of the doubt go to the player manning the mark But it's early doors ... the teething problems will remain whilst the new ruling sorts itself out We've already had the AFL admitting that 6 indiscretions were missed on the weekend (6 were enforced) And 5 'clear' examples of transgressions (in video form?) have been sent to the clubs to peruse So they are treating the whole thing quite seriously ... that's why I'm so interested. Could be a real game-changer

A better way would be clearly defined actions either penalised or not penalised. Abuse gets automatically penalised I've said right throughout that I like the ruling in principle with the caveat that we can't have another grey area The grey area could be that the benefit of the doubt goes to the player manning the mark if that's players actions are deemed to be quite harmless I reckon I could be able to differentiate the difference and I've never umpired a game of footy

The abuse aspect is self explanatory but the remonstration with the arms needs defining. The players need to know what they can and can't do Unacceptable would be the player moving towards the umpire with arms oustretched in a threatening manner as per the video above At the other end of the scale would be self disappointment with a slight shoulder shrug or absolute minimum movement of the arms ... that can't be penalised Anything inbetween needs clarity Do the clubs still get instructional videos?

You're clutching at straws now, dc haha Deep down you know I'm right but you're unable to switch ... hard to change a habit of a lifetime isn't it?

But of course the umpires will be blamed because blaming the rule-setters isn't very satisfying ... but that's if the ruling isn't clear-cut If they get it right, the storm in the teacup will dissipate quickly Right now, we need to stop talking as spectators ... do we want the players to yap on our behalf? Hmmmm It's up to the players to behave and not overreact over a contentious decision. Otherwise the penalty can be a big one

I know a lot of people who loved Waverley ... a great big ground and some great footy played there as well We obviously move in different circles. Show me someone who didn't like Waverley and I'll show you a blinkered ..... As for accepting the umpires decision, those who transgress will be ridiculed eventually for giving away a needless 50 (and that might happen sooner than people think) I'm tipping that this thread will be an interesting read in a years time ... or even in a few months time Time will tell

There's a connection between how the game is umpired and the possible umpire abuse ... for instance, the abuse might come about from a questionable umpiring decision So nothing can be viewed in isolation in my view ... that's why I brought up the grey areas So you might want to keep it at the dissent/abuse level bit I like broadening arguments so as to explain the big picture As an example, if all the umpiring decisions were absolutely clear-cut, would we have any need to come down on abuse? I'm a great believer in cause and effect ... as well as cutting out all the abuse & 'unnecessary' dissent the league also needs to make the game easier to umpire (with more clearly defined rules) I've suggested doing something about the plethora of high contact frees (which are often soft) but with the new concussion protocols, what are the chances? Apologies for going sideways but that's how I operate In summary, I can't see much changing with regards to the supporter frustration from an overall perspective but the new ruling has my support (as long as we don't get another grey area!)

That's a great story Picket! Good on ya! I played until I dropped but never entertained the thought of umpiring ... and I don't know anyone else that ever did either I've always admired those who chose that path though. To last the distance you'd need a hide as thick as a rhino and a mindset like no other Always remember my first game live ... at the Lake Oval in the late 60's. Demons won but the thing I most remember was the full Police escort surrounding the umpires as they walked out on the ground. There were a total of 5 umpires and about 8 policemen (and a couple of clydesdales) And then the umpire holding the ball aloft in triumphant style! (as if to say ... "I'm in Charge") Not long after the Swans crowd started screaming at the umpire for the entire game (and afterwards) It was non-stop and quite an eye-opener for a young lad! I got out alive