Demon Dynasty

Clark would win a Coleman if we gad a decent midfield

Add a few more team mates with some decent disposal skills and some speed/run and i'd have no doubts about this. Neeld playing him as a ruck rover on occasions isn't helping him to kick as many goals either. Pretty energy sapping. I understand why he's trying it though given Calrk's grunt and desperation at the contest.

I don't think anyone knows when it's our turn to go OD. Who knows, I might go before you. I'd like to experience the ultimate before i turn me toes up as well. I'm with you as to the chances of it being soonish though.

I think every Demon would like to see us competitive and respected much sooner than that though. Hopefully the beginning of the respect phase starts this Saturday arvo at the SCG.

RN Whatever the result in your dream it has got to be way better than real life in 2012

Yep. About as painful as giving birth i reckon. What comes out the other end better be bloody well worth it OD!

Can you please go back to sleep and get a result for us......I'll take anything at this stage.....

Haha

I don't know if i wanna know

Hopefully Misson (with another pre-season or 2) will build the boys into a running/power raging team that can steam roll their opponents and run over the top like the weapon did with the Cats and now (early days but signs are good sadly) with the Bombres

Interesting article for those who may not have seen already......

http://www.heraldsun...f-1226217676548

I had a dream a few years back that we played the Bombres off in a GF in the not to distant future. And no it wasn't a replay of the 2000 GF (thank god lol). It came down to 1 or 2 kicks with 5 minutes to go. Didn't manage to get to the result part lol.

The money we have would be better invested in a gun midfielder than a gun CHF/FF! We need to be able to get the ball down there first.

Agreed, along with Viney we need a classy outside mid (and HB) with break away speed and great ball use a la Burgoyne. But we also need another KF/avenue to goal other than Clark and at this point no one's sticking their hand up to say "it's me it's me" at either senior or VFL level. Howe's having a crack as a part timer/floater across CHF but don't think he'll ever be a KF as such.

Neeld's probably looking for the twin tower option and a 2nd alternative goal kicking pack marking/lead up forward. Doubt we'd be able to find the folding stuff to beat off the others though.

Having Jurrah back (if/when) he gets back will be a great injection to the team and a big relief for Neeld obviously. Although i'd rather see Jurrah played as an outside mid (mostly) at this point. His burst speed, ability to know where to run, evasive skills, footy smarts in general and clean/smart disposal are something we sorely lack through the mid atm (and the clean/smart/quick disposal to advantage.....lacking pretty much all over the field lol) . Won't be unhappy if he pushes up for the odd goal too of course!

Better lay in a supply of valium hardtack you are going to need it.

Have mercy on your son mate leave him home

I'm not so sure OD. I have a strong feeling this will be our first win

NOTE: The above statement is subject to the following clause; The poster reserves the right to change the above statement, in particular after seeing the final teams announced and upon any official statements emanating from the bowels of the FD, the administration of the MFC and/or the players themselves (including any off field matters of significance which is believed may impact on field performance).

Had a cushy job at a successful club. Could have stayed there for a few more years. Could have chosen an easier option like Adelaide or St Kilda but no he came to the basket case that was/is the MFC and has staked his entire fledgling coaching career on turning around the Titanic.

He's been prepared to put self-satisfied noses out of joint, sack ineffectual leaders, drop soft no. 1 draft picks and most importantly completely dismantle a useless game plan that would have seen us fold under the first sign of trouble in a final.

And he's prepared to get flogged week-in week-out, enduring the inevitable calls for his sacking by supporters fearful of change, in order to get the job done.

Hard as f..!k this bloke and I for one stand up and applaud him for having the cojones to put his own future in the game on the line in order to turn this joint into what for most of the past 47 years it has only ever been masquerading as ... and that's a football club.

I'm backing him in come hell or high water.

I'm sure many here will stick fat for the contract period. But i'll applaud when i choose to. At the end of the day he needs to earn the applause with results on the field. We'll know when that's happened when it happens. Hird earned it and received one at 3 quarter time tonight.

Whilst Neeld appears to be making some hard decisions, which may end up placing us in a better position in the long haul, applause and appreciation has to be earned through results on the field against quality opposition.

Pretty sure Neeld would accept and expect nothing less.

Jurrah was benched a fair bit in the 2nd half, as was Watts and Green. All 3 of those blokes will be up for selection I reckon. Nicholson made errors but worked hard and got plenty of it, as did Dunn.

So much more entertaining watching the Scorps than the Dees at the moment.

Was it what. Not a big stage and opposition not great but it beats getting beat every week.

They were all being benched a fair bit. Just the rotations i think. Although Jurrah and Green permanently off by about half way through the last. No point risking an injury with the game well in the bag. First time i've had a good look at Spencer. Reminds me of a giant version of Darren Bennett lol (looks wise).

Was watching Green take his glove off after he was benched for good. Had a long chat with one of the trainers as he was removing the taping but probably nothing in it. I reckon we'll see him back in for sure this week if his hand holds up after this match. Jurrah is borderline in terms of readiness (match fitness) but Neeld must be very tempted given his clean handling, finish and ability to find/create time space on the outside. Just read Big Reds comments....Blease provided plenty of options for us outside and gave some great line breaking run. Hard to overlook as well.

A win is a win. Nice to see one aspect of the club going alright.

P.S. A pitty Couch missed

I hate to say it, but watching Melbourne play is boring. Not just because the team is losing, but the way they are playing. I understand that the defensive mentality of the team may not have been great in the past, but there is almost no attacking mentality at all now.

No wonder membership hasn't grown from last season, the club and players need to give supporters a reason to come to the footy, other than the fact that they are Melbourne supporters. Where's the entertainment in watching a team do the same thing (hug the boundary line, play for a throw in) over and over? We too often rely on a piece of individual brilliance from a player like Clark just to get within scoring range.

Melbourne has one of the smallest supporter bases and struggles to get kids to follow the team. Why would anyone want to watch what Melbourne has served up this year?

We can deal with losing (most of us are accustomed to it by now), but I am really struggling to deal with the boring.

Maybe go watch Casey instead Clint (if you aren't already of course). At least they have a crack for four quarters and an attacking side to their game style.

Give Couch some support. Couldn't be any worse than some of the plodders we got upstairs atm.

The only chance we'll have of beating a Hawks team in the foreseeable future today too.

Probably all crap but this is my take on it FWIW.....feel free to wack me.....

> SKILLS SKILLS SKILLS by hand and foot (including the accuracy and speed at which those skills are executed....time and space). Improve this area substantially and up goes the confidence as will the run and spread (obviously being last in disposal efficiency against the competition isn't great).

> Can't string any quick succession of handballs together to get out of trouble or to find the 2nd/3rd rider from a clearance (mind you there's rarely any 2nd rider in the open at this point, let alone a 3rd, as we turn the ball over in the clearances so often we don't have the belief in each other for the designated riders to run and spread). Emphasis on speed and accuracy (even if that means cheating and getting a few cheap throws in in close.....top teams do this quite often. Hawks had plenty of in close throws tonight which weren't picked up). See below re handball.

> Not enough damaging "burst speed" and/or evasive players other than Howe, Jones and Davey.

> No classy quick small forward to worry the opposition (goal snap/kicker and just to help gain possession or regain possession) when the ball hits the deck up forward on the occasions it goes in there.

> No classy/speedy outside rider/s either through the middle or off half back to carry and deliver the ball with speed and accuracy further up the field (Howe trying hard and doing quite well though, Davey/Morton trying hard).

> We're playing an old 80's style kick long to a our advantage around the boundary where possible. Or if under severe pressure just kick long up the line to any contest, few handballs. Because we are slow both across the ground and in our decision making, we're often getting caught and we end up kicking under pressure to virtually any contest up the ground (ie., mostly to the wrong contest or an uneven one)....even an opposition only contest! Our kick to handball ratio would be a big turn around from the Bailey era i would think where we hand balled much more often.

> As a result of the emphasis on long kicking, our handball skills appear very low as we hardly ever handball in succession to link our way out of trouble. We either have no confidence in our hand balling generally (there are exceptions to this but too few to impact) or we are under instruction not to overdo it and when we do handball we're just woefully under done or lacking the belief to do so (under done in training drills here maybe? Too much emphasis/training on defense?)

> Need to find one more solid option to goal (see below for fix suggestion)

> Need to find a small crumbing forward (see below for short term fix suggestion)

> We attempt a forward press, sometimes successfully for short periods but usually let down by one player not playing close enough on his opponent or occasionally letting him run behind the press to take easy long kick/mark out the back. There's one player in particular who's letting us down here week after week but i won't mention him as there's plenty of other players doing dumb things.

In the short term, i would dump Garland, Petterd, Bail, Sylvia & Bate. In Couch, Blease and in 2 to 3 weeks Watts (hopefully) if he's deemed to be ready around then. Someone else for Watts in the short term till Watts is ready (haven't looked yet...suggestions?) and another for Sylvia (again i haven't looked...suggestions?). And another for Bate? And this is the problem. Do we have these 3rd, 4th, & 5th alternatives? Probably not.

Chip to CHB to create (loves to run and carry and can create a little mayhem in the opposition at least...drawing players, creating a potential overlap for the run etc).

Watts to FB (in 2 to 3 weeks) where he shares this role/duty with T McDonald.

Davey in the back pocket on the opposition's best small. Get him away from his problem area (ie., playing up forward or through the middle) and provide some clean ball use, run and to cut through the press with accuracy and hopefully put him in a defensive mind set on his opponent to shut him down. He'll also (in many cases) have most players in front of him so he wont hear as many footsteps as he does up the field atm!

Morton to the HB (occasionaly with Howe) to add further marking strength in the back half, extra run and long kicking out of the press.

Watts and Davey (Only at this point) to take the kick outs.

Couch into the middle to rotate with Moloney, Magner, and Mckenzie. Howe and Morton occasionally pushing up as the outside riders through the middle.

Jones up forward to try and add the small crumbing forward type role (even though he isn't really that i realise) pushing up high at times to offer the outside option and run.

Jurrah (when fit enough) mostly an outside rider/runner in the middle, occasionaly pushing up forward to offer the crumbing/marking option (swapping with Jones in these two roles)

Blease in if he has anywhere near the speed of last year.....just blood him to become a key receiver runner off half back to eventually take over full time from Howe (part time when not resting up forward).

Rest/play Howe mostly up forward to give us the 2nd dangerous option until (IF) Watts is ready to step in later this year or next . If Watts does make it up forward (as the 2nd dangerous forward along with Mitch as the main of course) then Howe can be freed up a little higher up the ground as required to provide a utility role (as per now) pushing up on occasions to give a 3rd dangerous forward option (along with Jurrah) or providing a /decoy for Watts/Clarke/Jurrah. Watts, Howe, Jurrah as decoys for each other and Clark.

Focus on SKILLS SKILLS SKILLS and speed of delivery, run, spread!!

Defensive aspects (other than forward press) later!!

That's me short term fix for some short term gains and by round 17. At least 4 wins lol! Sydney, GWS, Brisbane & Port. Now on to my next J&B to numb the pain of tonight

Edit: Having slept on this o'night .....Tappy in for Bate. Tappy in at BP only. Long raking kick out of defence and wont get so lost here as he only has one way to look to an d one direction to head in (share kick outs with Watts and Davey, Tappy going long as he can at times to a boundary contest...predictable but distance outside 50 the key and wont be too predictable if we share the role between Watts & Davey for change up). Green in for Sylvia. Green to FF only. Hit up on the lead inside 40 as alternative to Mitch's lead out to 50 and sometimes beyond.

Note: Time inside forward 50's last night .... Hawks 63%. Demons 37%. Nothing surprising but ugly nonetheless.

DefinItely DO NOT bring him back! At least not straight away, otherwise we've wasted a fabulous chance of Wattsy "getting it" i reckon.

Has the "potential" to be a great forward in the ilk of Dermott. Needs to find the mongrel though (obviously). If he finds this, he'll go on to be one of our greats i think. If he doesn't...well....

At least 2 weeks helping out in the ruck (after some decent coaching from a former ruck great or whoever our ruck coach is ...assuming we have one). Probably need assistance in the ruck anyway to help out at VFL level with Fitzy moving upstairs. Assuming he does what's asked and hits the contest hard, spreads well, gets to plenty of other contests (impacting them) etc...then take him to the next step (below). No he aint no ruckman, but there's absolutely no where to hide in the middle and some around the ground work going for the ball up. He either brings the attack, intensity and uses his body (to the best of his capability/strength at this point of his early development) or he don't. Don't even need him to beat his opponent as such. It's the intensity, attack and fearlessness i'd be looking for. In fact he'll probably get smashed in that role. But that's ok (subject to no major injury of course).

Assuming he does what's asked.... then move him upstairs to match up on some of the greats of the game down back. Make him accountable and take on a role where he'll not only earn his place but learn forward work off some of the best in the AFL. 6 - to 8 matches here. Hopefully he'll hold his own and keep his opponent reasonably quiet (depending on what's happening up the field of course etc). Even get some assistance/advice from Dermott re forward work and possibly an insight in to how to man up defensively on forwards etc.

Then throw him forward for the last 3rd of the year say.....assuming he's earned his place down back and the FD feel his good to go for a stint up forward.

My opinion means nothing, but this is how i'd like to see the FD try with Watts for the rest of this year. If he finds his mongrel and his mojo down back (one on one) and then up forward later in the year, then we've got a potential super star just around the corner (ie., from next year onwards).

I really believe if he finds the mongrel and has a big learning curve during this year, he could end up being as good as (or very close to) a Dermott up forward (at least as returns and value go.....not necessarily playing with the all out Dermy attack and grunt....but i live in hope!).

Some positives (and negatives) on the stats side. Would like to see stats such as (to name a few)... effective tackles, effective clearances, hit outs to advantage, play on %, etc but don't have access to them...anyone have that here??:

Rankings

Contested possessions: Demons 15th / Hawks 14th (Positive? lol)

Uncontested possessions: Demons 18th / Hawks 7th (i think that might be a negative!)

Disposal Efficiency: Demons 18th / Hawks 3rd (oops)

Contested Marks: Demons 4th / Hawks 14th (Yahoo!)

Clearances: Demons 11th / Hawks 18th (given our disposal efficiency i reckon we need to see "effective clearances" , still a win is a win i guess)

Tackles: Demons 10th / Hawks 4th (i'd rather see effective tackles)

Goal Accuracy: Demons 7th / Hawks 9th (if we can only deliver accurately i50 and get it in there enough times! Woot woot)

Entries inside 50: Demons 17th / Hawks 7th

Rebound from defensive 50: Demons 2nd / Hawks 13th (the pressure being brought on our defense might pay off big time later i hope...doing a pretty good job given how often it's coming in atm).

Friday (n), May 19, 2006

http://footystats.fr...es/haw-mel.html

ive never felt more satisfied baggin a HFC supporter when this game was going through the motions in 2006, there supporters absolutely [censored] me!

Our time will come again fellow brethren

Give Em stick

Sorry DS but you will have to wait till 2013 at the earliest, we have a significantly poorer list than the Hawks miracles only happen in the Bible.

I'd have to say i'm a little worried too OD. I get the feeling the boys (and coach) seemed in some way "satisfied" with their efforts last week, yet we still lost by over 7 goals against a fairly depleted and relatively inexperienced (compared to recent years) Cat side. They had the wood on us and better quality players at the top (experience wise) and were playing at home in front of a home crowd i realise.

But if we don't step it up to another level (which might be just 2% extra effort/output or so....who knows) this week we might get a nasty surprise i reckon. Hopefully we do, but the mindset this week is a bit of a worry going in.

maybe we can borrow Dermie's line in the sand

I'd love that to happen OD. Problem is, where are the enforcers?

Maybe we could bring Balls, Yeats, the Febey brothers, Keogh and Jakovich back for this one lol. Even throw Jacko in to line up on buddy lol

Not sure why there is such anger to these two.

Both have given good service to the MFC, both have only a few good years left.

The MFC will not play finals in their time left.

If I was either of them I would see nothing but grief ahead for the rest of their playing time at AFL level.

If a good offer comes up I would take it.

When it suits the MFC we will fling them e.g. McDonald.

Take the chance for finals glory plenty of other players have done the same.

That is what free agency is all about.

Agreed OD. Loyalty went out the window many decades ago both ways.

No-one is tampering with the draft.

The much maligned 'Veale Deal' that allowed WB to pick up Rawlings in the draft to keep a deal between NM and Hawthorn occuring is in a similar vein to the trade I am envisioning.

If the AFL want to tell us we cannot convince clubs to overlook Viney for reward then we just do it surreptitiously with GWS and GC - let the AFL prove it and hold all the clubs accountable...

Until Demetriou comes out and explains the lengths to which they will go to stop us - we do it.

I like this RPFC. What precedent is there previously for a penalty for draft tampering anyway? Let's do it at take whatever rap comes you're saying. Everyone knows that GWS etc would be tampering/and f&^@ing with us and the system anyhow if they select Jack. We'd be just doing a little of the same. Go to court and attempt to get whatever penalty's placed on us overturned if needed if it comes to that. I'd happily contribute to a fund raiser towards the cost if needed.

Just another case of the AFL having their cake and eating it to.

Wouldn't GWS nominating Viney with Pick 1 when he isn't considered the no. 1 kid in the country also draft tampering??? And what about the alleged Victorian clubs lobbying GWS and GC to nominate Viney, surely that's draft tampering also?

So either all are cases of draft tampering or none are. Absolute rubbish if we can;t arrange a deal like that!

Spot on TD. One rule for the new clubs, the interstate teams and big boys....another for the also rans. Pretty hard to get up off the bottom if you can't do a few sweetheart deals along the way and you get your No.1 pick stolen from under you after 2 years. It's a pitty the free agency arrangement is so restrictive.

Still does not explain why you went to the trouble of listing a phone book of statistics about the two teams which indicates a relative disposition about the two sides which is completely false. Youcould have easily countered Biffens assertion about the number of players playing over 100 games without resorting to the roll out of superfluous stats

And your elongated effort was in support WYL's point of view. Re read post #88. The irony of accusing others of not getting it will be unsurprisingly lost on you. Good luck with the knock knock jokes.

Nah....it wasn't supporting anyone's point of view. I don't believe stats like that tell anywhere near the full story as to where the comparative lists at the 100+ end (or rookie end or whatever....covering all bases cause you're so anal) are rated on the field and their comparative quality in terms of the value they add to the teams. It's purely an indicator as to where our list is at (experience wise) versus another teams. Nor was i trying to trump Biff's comment. I figured he might have last year's stats in mind as he wasn't far off the mark in terms of how many 100+ gamers we had on the park on the fateful186 versus the cats that day.

Nor was i pumping up WYL. He don't need any help there lol. Was just offering the stats up for them (or others) to look at if they wanted as i had them at hand. In hindsight i probably should have only posted the breakdown of games played instead of the whole thing. So point taken on the overkill. But you got the intention all wrong.....again. Just because i find stats interesting to look at, doesn't mean i place a massive amount of weight on them. As we all know, you can build a case to support almost any argument by selectively picking out stats. Even i do it sometimes. Doesn't mean that i'm right and it doesn't mean the stats are correct in supporting that argument. It's just something to talk about at the end of the day and vent on i guess. The only thing i do like to see with them when they're being used is accuracy, wherever possible anyway (yeh that's me being anal now lol...but i even correct myself or the stats themselves sometimes if i've find out posthumously that i've posted or quoted stats that are a fair way off). Unfortunately you've taken it as an insult or something for some reason. No problems. Each to there own mate.

Rusty mentioned learning a 'defensive style' of game. I'm curious why we would want to learn a style that is out of date, as is already being shown by other clubs and especially when we have a more attack oriented list. IMO we need to be innovative on the attacking side, which as was also said, is the best form of defence. (No criticism of you Rusty.)

I'm ok with Neeld's defensive game plan and i think it will hold us in good stead once the the players get it ...or Neeld goes out and gets the players that will hopefully get it lol. I just don't think it was necessary for him to start with a complete rebuild from the ground up and place so much emphasis on the defensive aspects he wants them to learn at the apparent expense of their attacking style of play and skill set. And yes, attack is one form of defense and an effective one. Score board pressure can have a pretty amazing impact at times.

With a fairly inexperienced list i just think it was important to set the tone early with a few wins and get the boys believing in the coach and the coaching team as such. Give them a little light and a positive mind set to begin with....then they'd be all ears and open to pretty much anything! It's a sell job for Neeld as much as it is for the players in those early stages. If that meant sacrificing a little in terms of allowing the boys to continue their "attacking" game style and mind set at the expense of certain defensive aspects of their game in the short term, then so be it.

Once a few early wins are under the belt and the place is humming a little, then start placing more effort and time into the defensive side piece by piece!

In addition there's a "sell / marketing" side to the whole club. It's a business at the end of the day and a cheap early win or 2...or even 3....would have given the admin/marketing side some ammunition with which to go out and hammer the membership drive. And maybe get a few more of the 6,000, that apparently haven't signed from last year, to renew their memberships as well.

I guess what i'm trying to say in short is, that there's different ways to skin a cat. The end result (defensively) would probably be the same or very similar after 2 or 3 years. Neeld would have gotten his way regardless here. But IMO we had a chance to implement a fast break at the outset using a more considered and calculated approach in order to get the Neeld era (and most importantly our membership $/numbers & potential sponsorship $) off to a more positive start from the get go.

It's amazing what a few early wins do to the whole psyche of a club, the players and the supporters (read potential members).

Calm down Rusty.......we get it, you just posted the stats - no need for knickers & knots.

I stand by my comment regarding the stats, however that doesn't make you responsible for the original # of games comparison - happy with that clarification?

I'm sure those who were paying attention didn't think any less of you

At least one of you got it....and yeh...i'm always happy .... Cheers mate

why you little' timestamp='1336386614' post='561379']

Mate Geelong had 10 players with under 50 games on saturday. It is not good enough. I love being positive about my club. I do not like being conned, which i fear our list is becoming.

True ,but we had probably 3 with 100 plus games where they may have had 10 or 11.

(stats completely invented by me)

Well said.

Comparing number of games is a frivolous exercise - it's the quality of the experienced players that counts.

This season is proving to be a genuine reality check for the MFC.

Again I am not sure what rattling off those stats achieved. What they appeared to indicate was so far from the truth.

Jones is barely 24 and Frawley is 23. Hardly senior players. I was not potting individual players but the group. I would only exclude Jamar.

If you think Neeld took over side similar to side/list that Ross Lyon took over then you are greatly mistaken.

Maybe this will help you get why i posted the stats to mull over....was never in support of any argument ....but even then you two (RR & Tricky dicky) probably still wont get it....HELLO....KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK....wakey wakey....anyone home???

Doesn't matter a fig if their 10 are elite and our 10 are B or C graders.

Exactly. It's just a picture of where we're at in terms of the number of games these guys have behind them. It's not an indicator of quality or maturity on the field. What it does show however, whether we agree with it or not, is that the club has had enough faith in this player so far.....to put him on the field 100+ times. That's alot of faith. They must see something in them either presently or for their and our future if we keep playing them beyond 4 to 5 seasons.

Again I am not sure what rattling off those stats achieved. What they appeared to indicate was so far from the truth.

Jones is barely 24 and Frawley is 23. Hardly senior players. I was not potting individual players but the group. I would only exclude Jamar.

If you think Neeld took over side similar to side/list that Ross Lyon took over then you are greatly mistaken.

No i'm just saying we had X numbers of Seniors (100+ games experience wise....that's 5 years in the system) versus them. The Cats had X number of players with 100+ games experience. Both of which should count for something. As to how much it counts for....i have no idea...and you wouldn't either. But they didn't get to 100+ games by playing like a complete donkey, regardless of which team they're in.

I never said Neeld took over a list as good as Freemantles.....stop putting words into everyone's mouths. All i'm saying is he believed getting a few early (maybe even cheap) wins on the board was important to gain the confidence in the playing group with whatever plan or changes he was proposing or putting in place.

And if you don't think "Belief" within any team playing group (and belief in their coach and his direction) is important...you're sadly mistaken.

Always twisting peoples posts to turn something that isn't an argument into an argument. Missed your calling RR....should've been a politician.

P.S. Frawley shouldn't have been included as a senior player (experience wise)....less than 100 games. My mistake.

I am not sure why you placed all the stats down Rusty as they dont dress the key points. The gulf between the Cats and MFC maybe not so much in the stats but in the clear quality of the playing list particularly the experienced players.

Geelong are still in the glow of one of the best senior lists in the AFL. They are still a team to be feared while they have Johnson, Scarlett and Co running around. The test for them will be in 2 to 4 years as they transition away from these great players. While the worth of the youth is still to be determined they have a wonderful development opportunity and culture.

MFC senior players, regardless of the games played, are woeful. Its left our U23 talent completely exposed without leadership, good example or protection. We are waiting for our talented youth to come through but hell MFC make it so difficult for that to happen.

And with a new coach and gameplan, its going to take at least 12 months to get this right. New gameplans are not learnt and perfected over a pre season.

I'm not trying to address any points with them. Was just confirming the numbers for Biff as he was under the impression we had only 3 100+ gamers. Was just addressing the pure numbers in terms of who had what (experience wise) on the ground. Just a context thing for the discussion between him and WYL. As to the quality of the lists and how they got there...that's a story book in itself i would think.

I agree with the rest of your points with the exception that all our senior players are woeful. I wouldn't put Jones in the woeful basket. Nor Rivers, Frawley and Moloney on good days. The latter might have woeful days granted

Ummm...your last point.... i only hope so. I'm thinking 18 months with the present "fielded" list, about half way through next year...and that's just to get this defensive style mastered.

If we can bring in some decent ball users (inside & out/hand and foot), or improve our existing player's disposal skills, their ability to choose the correct options (eg., kicking to our player's advantage etc) and add some serious leg speed ... we might even start winning against a few of the decent teams at some stage later this year or hopefully from the start of the next. But i'm thinking middle of next season before we see a really substantial turn around versus clubs 6 and below anyway. And i'm not even confident on that at this point lol.

I keep hearing the words of Ross Lyon in his interview with SEN when asked... "what was the key factor for you when you first took on the Freemantle list?" ... answer went something like..."to get some wins on the board early and fuel the BELIEF factor".