Demon Dynasty

How bout we hire a ring and you two duke it out with Craig, Bartlett and PJ in the judges chair? I'm pretty sure i know who Craig will be voting in favour of

Never thought I'd ever say this.....

Play Magner.

Drop Watts.

Jumbo i never thought i'd see the day you saw the light. How wrong i was. Magner is not the messiah and more than likely not a long term answer to our mid field woes, but he's a mile ahead of Watts in terms of an honest hard nosed never-say-die contest and 2nd efforts (albeit he struggles to get there quickly at times, at least he tries!). Sometimes lessor stuff (in the eyes of some) like that can be just as or even more inspirational and motivating to your team mates as the silky/showy stuff.

Unfortunately we'll never get to see whether these theories and speculation might have some basis.

Magner will surely move on or be moved on shortly having never been given a fair shot at proving anything to anyone. At least not at the MFC anyway.

Turns it over with poor disposal.

If he was creative, made good decisions, and executed delivery he'd be playing. The fact that he struggles to get a game in arguably the worst midfield in history should probably tell you something.

Nathan Jones led the Clanger count up to round 15 with 5.64 average clangers per game. Just ahead of Magner (5.00), Viney (4.17), Rodan (3.75), Grimes (3.33), McKenzie (3.13) and Sylvia (2.91).

Based on your premise almost our entire mid field should be struggling to get a game, Viney and N Jones included. That doesn't mean your assessment is wrong, just limited with regards to it's gaze.

In fact, with his VFL stats each week, it seems ridiculous that he cannot get a start in the worst midfield in the comp.

No it's not. This is the MFC you're talking about. Nothing new. No sense for common sense. Been like this for 3 to 4 decades.

He would be a massive help for nathan jones and jack viney. Just another big body to bust through packs and create a contest. But like others i am absolutely gobsmack how they continue to play blokes likes Byrnes Blease and even Jack Watts ahead of this bloke..

Regular "average" performers rack up game after game at this club whilst those who seemingly deserve a game (from the outside looking in anyway) ignored for far too long or just completely left to rot. The 2 highlighted are getting most of their possessions on the "outside" (uncontested) which would be nice IF they impacted on the scoreboard or through decent number of goal assists etc (Byrnes ranked 11th here on average and Watts 16th). While we desperately need inside mids to clear and get first possessions, as well as tackle and lock downs for repeat stopagges. Magner would also have been handy as an additional number just to rotate through the mid and give the likes of N Jones a rest more often, either on the bench or resting forward.

And why upgrade the guy if you are not going to play him!

Yet another perplexing decision by the Melbourne Pigeons FD.

It is ridiculous that 1) it took us forever to upgrade him after Clarks injury and 2) once upgraded we refuse to play him. It beggars belief that he is less deserving than some of the guys rotating in and out of the side all year.

The club is rediculous as a whole and has been since 186. That's why it's a laughing stock.

Obviously lacks speed and also doesn't seem able to impact AFL with endurance either ie. doesn't rack up uncontested disposals at AFL level.

The first Freo game we got belted when Magner played. This time we went for Jones, Viney, McKenzie, Sylvia predominately with also Grimes and Trengove as the inside midfielders. Put Magner in and you take one of those guys out. Now I'd be happy for Grimes to go back to half back or for Sylvia to play half forward and rotate in to the midfield to give Magner 2 weeks just to see what he can do but I don't hold high hopes.

The big questions are:

1. Do you ever think Magner will be AFL standard?

2. Will playing Magner make an impact on the scoreboard ie. will he perform any better than Viney, McKenzie, Sylvia or Grimes do in the midfield

If your answer to both those questions is NO then you wouldn't play him if he had 100 possessions. Same for Rodan.

Firstly, that isn't what Magner's built for. Inside mid all the way. Not sure why you're wanting to turn him into an outsider. That's what we recruited pickles, Blease, Toumpas etc for. Would you expect Jack to be a major outside "uncontested" ball winner rather than his contested and clearance work? I hope not.

With regards to the players you highlighted, here are the average stats per game for each player up to round 15 and their rankings in the various relevant categories that relate to general mid field/stoppage work. I've included uncontested to see where they sit there as well from a versatility/spread/endurance point of view.....

Contested

1. N Jones (10.43)

2. Magner (10.00)

3. Grimes (9.17)

4. Viney (8.67)

6. Sylvia (7.64)

7. McKenzie (7.63)

10. Trengove (6.00)

Clearances

1. N Jones (5.64)

2. Magner (5.00)

3. Viney (4.17)

5. Grimes (3.33)

6. McKenzie (3.13)

7. Sylvia (2.91)

16. Trengove (1.33)

Tackles

1. Magner (6.0)

2. Trengove (5.25)

3. Sylvia (4.64)

6. Grimes (4.17)

7. McKenzie (4.13)

9. Viney (3.83)

14. N Jones (3.00)

Uncontested

3. N Jones (12.79)

5. Grimes (11.67)

6. Sylvia (11.55)

10. Magner (10.50)

10. Trengove (10.50)

15. Mckenzie (9.13)

24. Viney (6.67)

Effective Disposals

1. N Jones (17.00)

3. Grimes (15.67)

6. Magner (13.00)

9. Sylvia (12.55)

11. McKenzie (12.13)

14. Trengove (11.00)

21. Viney (8.50)

Other than being a few places behind Grimes in "effective disposals" and without placing too much emphasis on uncontested given it's more outside work for those suited to it, as you can see Magner is ranked higher than the players you mentioned (ie., Viney, McKenzie, Sylvia & Grimes) in Question 2 in all other stats.

In relation to Question 1, based on these stats i'm not sure many of our mid field stocks are AFL capable at this point with the exception of N Jones, Grimes and possibly Magner. That's not to say Magner would be capable of keeping up this standard through an entire season (or a more meaningful number of AFL games), but it would seem he'll never be given that chance from here even though he earned it in the few games he was given before being dropped. Although i haven't included Viney, i don't think i would be alone here in believing he is more than likely going to overtake the others given enough pre seasons, decent coaching and luck with injury. In fact if all goes well, i'm sure he could be our first champion since Mr R Flower graced the hallowed turf of the G decades ago.

The only way out of this mess is basically a massive cull. Get in a big group of new kids or midfielders and teach the players how to trust each other. it wont be quick. But going for hardnuts and players with a bit of arrogance (or personality - or even in some cases a pulse) would be a step up.

Without doubt. But no point unless the AFL offers a mid season draft (to all Clubs) with the ability for us to put most players (at least those who are newly contracted to the senior list) on performance based contracts with the ability to move them on through that draft, subject to being given a reasonable period of time/opportunity to prove they can meet certain KPIs. In addition there needs to be a provision in that performance based contract to cancel a new player's tenure early, if he falls short of meeting certain KPIs by a substantial margin.

If we don't take drastic action, similar to the above, we will be a permanent dumping ground for the AFL's leaky rusting wrecks and i fear the club itself will eventually be scuttled on foreign (interstate) shores somewhere with the sand crabs picking at its remains.

True, I reckon the Lions have already have their man, why would they sack Voss when he was doing a good job and not have an immediate replacement? I do think Roos has already agreed but wanted to give it some time after sacking Voss cos he is man of integrity and didn't want to step into the Lions position on the same day as Voss got sacked.

It will be an interesting month or so coming up Kureemy. If the Lions don't have their man then they're going to have egg, actually scrap that, try the world's biggest omellete on their face.

It's like watching Hugh Grant out there.

....."That is one of the reasons that I'm so thrilled to be living in Britain today"...

Sylvia is an amazing kick!

YD how old are you roughly?

Average disposal efficiency up to Rnd 15 this year.

Watts (career games 70) - Ranked 8th @ 79.8%

Sylvia (career games 154) - Ranked 29th @ 63.5%

Rhino, as you should well know by now, never let facts get in the road of a good conspiracy theory.

Besides i did say it "depends" on who's instructing who. Regardless, no doubt everything is being conducted "above board" and in fair and just manner for all concerned! I'm sure the outcome for Essendrug will be befitting of whatever misdeanours may have taken place, both within the hallowed halls of the Windy Pill offices and those of the anti-ageing clinic (or wherever else the alleged 1,500 injections of various unknown/unidentifiable substances may have been administered).

Has anyone else at the game noticed Sylvia going off at Watts..... I've seen 3 separate occasions where jack should have passed to Sylvia and chose otherwise. Col was pretty demonstrative on each occasion!

And Col's never done anything like that himself?

Any chance we can do a Frankenstein and transplant the skills/finish side of Watt's brain into Col's bod?

This line of 'we never kept records of what players were given what' is absolute crap. WADA/ASADA surely can't be buying it. What gets me is the arrogance of Hird.

Don't bet on it Al.

It depends on what the underlings doing the ground work are being instructed to do from the top, including lawyers etc who are also under instruction.

There's some huge money and big players involved here who have much to lose. Essendrug are also a very powerful wealthy club with big [censored] backers at the top end of town. If you think the most important potential game changing decisions are being left solely to ASADA's scientists/investigators to determine (as ideal as that might seem), think again.

Watts -"You look at the good teams like Geelong and Hawthorn and Fremantle and those kind of things. You've got guys like Selwood, Joel Corey, Stevie Johnson, Sam Mitchell and Jordan Lewis - they stand up and they don't accept that (losing) for their club".

Viney - "Ive just become 100 per cent committed to wanting to do things to improve.

The contrast in attitudes couldn't be more pronounced.

Watts isn't my best friend at the moment but I'd still keep him. Hogan, Mitch, Dawes and watts is a damn good forward line.

Too many talls Cowboy and not enuf quality mids to get it there often enough to matter nor decent smalls/mid sized agile forwards to crumb/kick goals. Too cumbersome and slow when the ball hits the deck. Opposition will lick their chops at the prospect of playing us with such a "too tall" foward line.

Watts prefers the easy route to success and is never going to miraculously find the grunt and hard nosed work ethic (tackling, 2nd/3rd efforts etc) so needed in today's game. Won't get himself to the top let alone the team with his present "kick it to me kick it to me" sooky la la soft [censored] attitude.

While he still has some value and provided we can secure a solid mid and/or a decent small crumbing goal kicking forward I would be happy to see us trade.

I have to say, it's a hard gig for all concerned doing a FH dinner with the season we have had. Peter Jackson was blunt and articulate, and comes across as others have previously said as impressive and ruthless. He said something along the lines that we need to rebuild our brand. He made the comment that for too long, we have focused on logos and history as a way to build our brand, and the brand had to be built around nothing but winning games of football and being uncompromising in all decisions we make to ensure that we never compromise winning games of football. He said that we have rested on the laurels of the draft, and thought that early draft picks meant success, but we have to get far more ruthless about player development. I think the quote was that there are 3 key priorities at MFC: 1. Player Development, 2. Player Development, 3. Player Development.

I was hoping he might have said 1. Mid Field 2. MidField/Pace/Skills & a small or two up forward 3. Player Development

Neil Craig is a mentor within the MFC, i hope he stays in that job.

He is not the person for the Senior Coaching job in 2014 onwards...

I agree with that assessment WYL. However he might end up being the only suitable "available" person for the job in 2014 given the state of things at the MFC atm.

If it meant appointing NC for say a 1 year contract as senior coach until we can shuffle through the list another time around and see some light. That way we at least have a little momentum off rock bottom, a sneak peek at the Hulk and a more competitive forward line. Back line's already well stocked and ready to roll. Then there's the mid field. Bolster that with 2 to 3 additional swaps in the trade (ie., Watts for a decent inside mid, Sylvia for some pace/skills outside etc).

Revisit the coaching landscape at the end of 2014 with a longer term appointment for 2015 onwards.

I would prefer to settle it with say Choco before year's end but things are so quiet from the board/PJ's end i doubt we've made any progress with anyone significant to this point.

Personally i wouldn't touch anyone outside of Choco and Roos given the state we're in. We need a massive appointment/announcement for 2014 but i'm afraid Roos has already gone to the Lions and Choco, well who knows. And no i don't see Choco in the same light as Roos but he's at least 2nd banana from all present candidates IMO and has been to the top before with limited resources.

I don't think this club's in any position to appoint say a Voss, a Simpson or another untried coach.

i have money on Roos to coach us but right now i am starting to feel as though he simply will not coach next year, he is smart enough to know unless he is desperate there is no point.

I doubt the Lions would have sacked Voss with just 3 rounds to go if they didn't have their man 26. Might be just a matter of securing support from the AFL for additional funding now. Roos may well have already agreed "in principal" to coaching them, albeit subject to dotting enough i's and lining his pockets with the right amount of folding stuff/contract terms etc.

Easily the worst to be a Melbourne supporter. Worst results, worst coach, worst Captains ( I'm in trouble for that) we are just shocking. There's suburban clubs that could beat us.

I can't see how anyone can argue against this being our worst season.....

• Worst win/loss ratio (this season and last under Neeld) by any coach in MFC history.
• The appointment of 2 junior rookies as Captains ranking up there with the one of the worst decisions in AFL/VFL history. I don't blame them, i blame the orangutans in charge who allowed it to happen. Apologies to all orangutans.
• Possibly the worst % over any 22 game season in MFC history (Stat Courtesy of SuperM)
• Bending over to the AFL and taking the tanking fine/suspensions up the khyber pass without a yelp.
• Forced to sack 2nd year coach mid season.
• Falling on sword by CEO/President and a number of board members.
• Appointment of AFL "annointed" president.
• MFC forecast to make million dollar loss requiring AFL bailout.
• MFC effectively run and funded by AFL.
• Average attendances down approx 24% since 2011.
• Membership down 10% since 2011.
• Impedement to the AFL according to newly appointed MFC President, Peter Jackson, following review of club.

Last night I was discussing this with my Brother who is a Lions member, he is of the opinion that the lions see Roos as the person to take over from Voss.

He claims that approaches have been made already.

Claims Roos is way more likely to move North from Sydney than South, weather / family reasons etc.

Do not be surprised if he knocks us back and takes the Lions job in October.

Looks like a pretty good feed from your bro OD. I never thought he was coming anyway but now that he's gone North i'm putting you forward as assistant coach to whoever we end up appointing.

At least i'll know he'll have no illusions as to the task that lays ahead!

Oops, i'm being sexist here. could just as well be the first ever female AFL coach they way we're travelling

WADA will still charge more.

This is just stage 1.

If WADA is in dispute with ASADA over the categorisation of AOD etc that could take years and be just too hard WYL. Even if WADA eventually wanted to penalise individuals The AFL and/or the Bombers could then argue against it in court, quite possibly successfuly, under "natural justice" alone given the delay.

Red you might wish to comment on this aspect if you're about?

I told you bb

That's how i saw it as well OD. Ie., a managed/massaged outcome.

Keep the "team" in the game with some sort of penalty, outside of preventing the club from participating in the rest of the season.

I also suspect if any penalties are laid, that their nature might well allow thoses charged to resume their roles before the beginning of next season.

Send out the bad cop (legal announcement/show serious face & possibly a reasonably serious outcome on the surface), but in the end a fairly moderate outcome for all.

Nicely managed so far. Steady as she goes from Vlad & the boys.

Yes, I know you and everyone else many others in this thread think that. That's the simple and obvious answer, but it doesn't sit well with me. I know we like to think the club is an abject failure in every single element imaginable, but I find it hard to believe that the club would pee its pants at the prospect of going to the tribunal. It's just too amateurish for me to believe.

You mean to tell me it's taken you this long to even entertain the thought Nasher?

A rudderless ship and no one manning the guns!!

A rudderless SHIP Bb? More like the SS Minnow!

Given how the executive producer of that show arrived at the name of the famous leaky boat, we might wish to call ours the SS Lyon or SS Schwab

What a boring place to play football - zero atmosphere.

You mean we're playing football?

Fair call, but by bending over as a club, What is it now the MFC supporter is supporting?

Personally i think a lot of the Red & Blue heart was ripped out the day we gave in.

A Fighting Fund may have united the supporter base for the long haul i believe.

The downside of course would be that CS may still be CEO!!!

I now sit somewhere near the fence, but i still wonder what i support.

I don't like giving up when a strategy is undertaken.

But then of course we discovered that Schwab's Red & Blueprint coupled with the recruiting of BP was just so farken bad!!!

Right now this club is in limbo. Is that better than fighting a fight we would have won??

I doubt there will be many left after this year WYL regardless. It's been a downward spiral ever since JM was moved on and the 186 debacle. The executive then backed the CEO over the playing group and that was it. If the shitty treatment of JM wasn't enough to make them feel ostracised then the decision to back CS was IMO the final straw for some within the senior group like Beamer, Rivers and Green. This is the moment the club slowly started to lose it's soul, spirit and fight on the field IMO. The introduction of MN was simply the icing on an already rotting cake.

Yes.

I have to disagree with you on this one Red. Sometimes you have to fight and stand up for yourself no matter what the financial cost. By not fighting, sometimes the outcome is worse than any financial impost, that is on the spirit, on the soul i mean. The outcome can be too dispiriting and impact heavily in many ways that will result in an even worse outcome in the long term. Football is a business i realise but in many ways it survives on it's supporters and their spirit/soul and willingness to keep committing year after year to the cause.

We gave up the fight way to easily IMO. Our name has now been tarnished forever as most outside the club believe we cheated our way into a No.1 draft position. If you took a poll on the MFC supporter base around the time of the saga i think you would have found they would rather have had us fight this one to the death. Imagine the impact this would be having on us trying to garner new sponsors for example. Can't be an easy sell, even for those few who might still be willing to consider us as a prospective marketing proposition.

I am reminded of a solid Thin Lizzy song here - Fight or Fall (probably the greatest "Live" classic rock band i've had the pleasure of witnessing) .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1OQtgS9YNg

So here's a question, do we keep him beyond this season?

My answer would be yes; his work ethic is great and is a handy depth player, especially while we have nothing else. I believe he should have been playing as much as possible this season as he is a big clearance winner.

Firstly, in relation to whether he stays or goes, i don't think he's been given enough opportunity so far to be sure as to whether he deserves another run at it or not. Another poorly managed aspect of the list in what is our worst year by a long way IMO.

Your assumption that he's a big clearance winner is correct insofar as his average places him 2nd only behind the Jones boy. That's up to round 15 anyway based on all player averages.

No. As an insider he's second rate, and he doesn't help with our biggest issue which is outside run. In a year where we've been screaming out for quality mids, two coaches have turned their back on him. He was worth the shot but I wouldn't keep him.

See above re inside clearance work. His stats tell a different tale as stated. In addition Magner ranks 2nd, again only to Jones, for contested posessions (based on all player averages/data up to Round 15). I would agree with you re outside RUN in terms of creating overlap/spread and carry. Magner ranks 11th in uncontested possession averages to round 15 and 28th in bounces. However I don't think anyone would expect him to be outstanding here including the recruiting dept. I would see him more as a foil/alternative to fill in for Jones boy (inside work/pressure etc) while Jones is being rested either on the bench or forward. What Magner might offer is a hard work ethic and willingness to push hard to get to many contests. An area where Magner lets himself down is disposal effectiveness where he's ranked 30th. He would need to clean that up in a big way to have a meaningfull impact i would think.

Having said that, looking forward we obviously have to improve our mid field stocks to be AFL level competitive. Just referring to the here/now/season gone and where Magner sits in a relative sense on our existing list.