nutbean

Absolutely !

My bad - but was still not considered an under 20 pick.

We did - with Cook, Gysberts and Strauss - and how did that turn out for us ?

I thought his efficiency over the past two years has been patchy at best - but I put that down to the immense pressure situations., in a crap midfield and having no-one remotely free to give it to and having only adequate extraction skills ( unlike Mitchell who is freakish). It didnt surprise me that his disposal was noticeably better on Saturday because our spread was better - I think if it is kept simple like Saturday he adds value and agree with you that I think he has a role.

I don't have a problem with Jones on Ablett as he has shown that he can shutdown and be effective as well. I have a preference for McKenzie shutting down Ablett and Jones running rampant though ! (Jones was great on Saturday - however as general rule you don't usually see what we saw on Saturday - that is a shutdown AND the tagger having such an impact - more credit to Jones - Crowley IMO doesn't rack up 28 possessions like Jones did and shut down his opponent to boot)

You could well be right. What I see in McKenzie is an absolute thirst for the contest. You are 100% right that the one big knock on him is his disposal. In his position, ( like the Lings and Crowleys) - he only will get the pill 12-15 times a game - which he can do. The challenge for him is to get it to our advantage 12-15 times a game.

Being a shining light in dark days is the only comparison to Tulip. Whether he would be a star in another team - who knows - but I am a huge believer that your job is made easier if you have some quality around you and I suspect you are right that if you put him in Hawthorns team he would go to another level. And he has absolutely held the club together - you cannot fault his heart and endeavour.

Kyle Cheney is a perfect example - he is no world beater at Hawthorn either but looks better than he ever did for us because he has good people around him. It's amazing what confidence in everyone around you can do to your own confidence. edit - it is no coincidence that Roos has repeated himself so often " the players are much better than they think they are"

I stressed and will restress that for last couple of years McKenzies disposal proved a liability. It was no accident that it was better on Saturday. When your team mates spread and provide a clear option it is easier to feed out an effective handball - for the last two years we have seen him at the bottom of the pack - and looks up and sees all his team mates standing on his fingers. As a general comment the one thing that Roos identified quickly ( besides getting more quality into the midfielder) is teaching the principle of not having all your midfielders go in for the contested ball. You need some midfielders to back your teammates to win the ball and peel off to receive. We seriously played school yard footy the last two years with all the mids chasing the ball and if one happened to get it the rest of his mates were standing shoulder to shoulder with him. I am seeing the beginnings of "Spread" from this team - makes it easier for the in and unders to give to someone.

Last year Macaffer kicked in 22 games - 7 goals. You may want to stress that tagger needs to offer more than holding jumpers - you are right - they need to be able to completely shut down the opposition teams main gun - but for all your protesting - coaches continue to use taggers who do nothing more than shut down the opposition player. McKenzie is limited and I have not suggested for a moment he is as good as Crowley - but the likes of Crowley and Macaffer have much better players around them and more structure to the team that helps them in what they do.

Pretty dismissive of Ling I would have thought - considering he was All australian and best and fairest at Geelong. In answer to your question on Crowley - it is exactly the points I was making. Crowley is the best in the business because he has honed his skills and he has a hell a lot of help around him. When the help around him fails as has happened against Hawthorn a couple of weeks he got completely chopped up by Mitchell. As to your Morton and Gysberts question - I'll respond to that nonsense - please tell me exactly where I said those two had any skillset whatsoever. As to your comment about needing to do more than just tag in modern football. Tell that to Macaffer on Friday night who shut out Richmonds number one playmaker. Also you made a point of saying Crowley is the best in the business - now go and look at his statistics from last year. His impact is basically shutting down the best midfielder in the opposition - that's pretty much it.

Reading between the lines - completely different bracket. Garland did most of the preseason so I suspect that his fitness base may be ahead of Dawes but they are easing him back in because of his injury. Dawes was fitness wise under done but I suspect they played him because they were confident he was over his injury. You can probably risk an unfit Dawes as opposed to a player who is not 100% due to an injury. Like Aiden Riley - They are monitoring him very closely on game time but also twinges and aches on a leg that was very badly broken.

You won't get an argument from me on this.

Jones is no Selwood either ( He well may become a "Selwood" but today and now - nope)

Or I look forward to the day that we have a gun midfield and the likes of McKenzie improve under that sort of midfield ( and coaching) and becomes like Crowley or Ling. ( Ling for the first 3/4's of his career was nothing more than an averaged skilled tagger with exceptional stopping skills. He was fortunate to have a sensational midfield around him)

You do realise that some players are a lot better at it than others and that will always be the case ?

You can back in 40 plus touches and 3 brownlow votes. Do you think Ablett is the sort of footballer you want to experiment with to see if Trengove is a good tagger ?

Yeah it could hurt. McKenzie is limited but he can play to his limitations. He is a tagger - nothing more nothing less. He has styled his game on standing on his opponents, not letting them get an inch away from him and nullifying. IAs you saw with Macaffer - it is a skill to not let your opponent get more than an arms length away from you. His main issue has been his disposal and I suggest that with better structures he will find it easier to give the ball off successful as our players will learn to make more space and free themselves up. His disposal was better on Saturday. Trengove worries me - whether it be injury or not, I don't know. His is slow both in speed, in lateral movement and decision making and that makes him a liability in any role you try to play him. I don't think Trengove is quick enough of mind or foot at the moment to tag anyone.

Correct - but Stynes was the better player - Stynes was never what you would call your traditional ruckman.

I am on record for saying that I don't mind Robbo. Firstly he doesn't come across as an arrogant " I know better than anyone else" like Smith and Barrett to name but two. Most importantly ( which I have also pointed out before) he has on other occasions also said that he got it wrong. That [censored] Barrett looks like you have murdered his first born if you disagree with anything he says but has never yet looking in the rear vision mirror and fessed up to how many he gets wrong ( which is all of them). On Robbo not rating Jones - many in football circles don't. He plays like his life depends on it and I love that and you pretty much know what you will get from him week in and week out - but many on here suggest he is elite - Pendlebury is elite and Jones is no Pendlebury.

I know you are being tongue in cheek. Dawes is very blue collar on the football field - nothing flashy, nothing fancy. Works his butt off and does all the right things. Lots of good stuff that does not earn a "stat". He had 12 possessions for the game yet his influence was undeniable.

Unless of course he improves under Roos like we are hoping most will ? I did notice an improvement in his disposal on Saturday which at times has made him a liability.

I thought his disposal in the main looked better. I have always maintained that if you have players that are drilled and run to good positions it makes the job of disposal a little easier as you are not continually second guessing as to where you think your teamate is going to go and can concentrate purely on delivering. If it is kept simple for Jordie he will be ok.

Its a matter of Demonland jumping the gun again. I have no idea if he will make it or not but with few exceptions - ruckman start to come into their own at 23/24 which is exactly what Spencer is now. The next couple of seasons is the time to judge him. He needs to keep up the aggression but keep it under control - loving the tackling and throwing the weight around but if you watch the Warnock report, Spencer threw a few punches as well - one which I thought landed.

I watched three quarters and was very impressed with the suns. They have some serious talent in their side - the problem they faced on Saturday night is they came up against at team who made them pay for every little mistake they made. Hawthorn were sublime. They are not going to be easy to beat - it will interesting to see how they respond to the beating they took.