Slartibartfast

I think the issue with Frost is he's basically a one position player and we have that position covered. The others you're talking about can cover a number of holes if necessary and would cost much less in terms of TPP. I know Frost can play, that's why others want him and his value now is probably as high as it will ever be.

Just two points Red, firstly we don't know what we might get back in the form of a player or pick. Secondly, if Frost is as good as many here are suggesting we'll have every team in the AFL fighting for his services. Reality is KPB is probably one area of the ground we are well covered and we have deficiencies elsewhere. Trade time is when you can fix these issues. If he goes lets see what we get back, then we can judge.

I'd be keen on Daniel or Hill in the deal, both suit our needs better than Caldwell and perhaps aren't as highly rated.

Name the ones with no " go home" factor.

Steve, I wasn’t arguing he’d come, I was arguing we aren’t a rabble. I agree, there are lots of reasons he wouldn’t come, I’ve said I don’t think he will. But I’ll say it again - We are not a rabble. Hope you’ve got the point this time.

Frost is a good player, that's why Hawthorn, and I suspect others, are looking at him. We have good coverage for KPD (assuming they can overcome their fitness issues) and we are in need of repair in other areas of the ground. Trade what you have a surplus in and fill the holes. It won't be a bad trade until we know what we get back and how that return performs. But it's quite logical to look at trading Frost for something we need.

I was responding to "rabble", not Elliot joining. FTR, I doubt he will.

Well I'll tell you why he might choose us. If we are the rabble you think we are why did Burgess and Richardson come to us when they had plenty of alternatives? Why would Langdon and Tomlinson even consider us (and appear very likely to join) given they appear to have a lot of alternatives? Why haven't a raft of players requested trades if we are such a rabble? I think it's because, like me, they don't think we are a rabble and they actually think we have a very bright future. Rather than slashing their wrists and going all hang dog about this season we've just had they may have asked themselves what happened for a club that finish in a PF in 2018 to fall to 17th in 2019. And strangely it happened without us losing a meaningful player(s). They probably thought that a good club one year, without any change of personnel on or off the field wouldn't have had the 2019 year they did without good reason. And here are some reasons (which I've posted elsewhere) they may have considered: These players were in discussions for our best 22 this season:- B: Jetta May Lever HB: Salem OMac Hibberd ? Harmes Oliver Fritsch HF: Petracca Weid ANB F: Melksham TMac Spargo R: Gawn Brayshaw Viney I: Kolo, Jones, AVB, J Smith Others: Hannan, Preuss, Lewis, Stretch, Frost, Hore That's 28 players that I would have expected to form the basis of the team for the season. You can take off and add some of your own but it won't change the arguments below. These players had significantly interrupted Preseasons (17): Jones, Harmes, Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Viney Jetta, May, Lever, Hibberd, Melksham, TMac, Kolo, Hannan, Hore, OMac and Stretch These players had Injury ruined seasons after a good PS (3): Weideman, AVB, JSmith, These players had a full PS and good run at the season (8): Salem, Fritsch, ANB, Spargo, Gawn, Preuss, Frost, Lewis I'm working from memory so you can correct me on some of the details but the facts are compelling. 17 or our best 28 players had significantly interrupted PS's and three others had significantly disrupted seasons. Of the 8 players who had a good go at it only Salem, Fritsch, Gawn and Frost were definite best 22 for me and some will add Lewis. That's 4 players and not one midfielder. Now fitness aside, is it any wonder connection from backs to forwards through the midfield was awful. Why? Because they didn't practice over the PS. Is it any wonder our skill level was awful. Why? Because most of our best 22 didn't do a lot of ball work over the preseason and we had a whole lot of NQR players in the team, many who didn't practice over the preseason. So Steve I'm guessing that anyone looking at joining our Club recognizes there are very good reasons for why we were awful this year and they expect us to rebound quickly. I do and Richardson, Burgess and a couple of handy players clearly do. They wouldn't join us if they thought we were a rabble. Why wouldn't Elliott think the same?

You're a harsh man Red and have made your point many times. The kid gives his all but sadly has some important weaknesses in his game. Effort isn't one of them.

Whilst I think there is a lot in what you say I think it's easy to forget how good we were at the back end of 2018. We didn't lack speed and we didn't often get caught out. We were caught out this year because all of our midfield didn't have a preseason. All of them. As for our ball use going forward I think that is very problematic when you have half your team out and the majority of the blokes that deliver it forward missing most of preseason - no practice = less than optimal skills. I agree we'd be better with more pace, I think small forwards and outside pace is lacking, but you put 9 first 22 players back into the team that played NM in the final round and give the mids a preseason and we are not having this conversation. As for game plan I think it's interesting. The Doggies have come alive in the back end of the season playing our 2018 footy. Essendon played some very good footy with that style. Brisbane tried to match Geelong at the Gabba with the "down the line defensive" stuff and were losing by 20 odd points at three quarter time. They played our style footy in the last quarter and won brilliantly. I'm not convinced that our style of footy is wrong or is dead, it clearly needs fit and skilful players to execute it. We need to improve on 2018, we need to hone game plans, we need to address weaknesses in our list. But more importantly than all that we need a good PS, fit players and continuity. It's no surprise that Brisbane and Geelong finished top 2 this year. Neither club had an injury really and the 22 had fantastic continuity which is something we just haven't had, even in 2018 we struggles for continuity. Continuity is totally underestimated by most. I guess the point I'm trying to make is the wrist slashing and view that we are a horrible footy club in crisis and destitute of players is a complete emotional overreaction to a season from hell. Much didn't go right but the infrastructure is there for a very powerful rebound. I don't think there would be one club that has written us off for 2020.

These are our senior players that had uninterrupted preseasons and a good run with few injuries during the season: Gawn, Fritsch, Salem, Frost, Lewis (?), Spargo, Hunt and ANB. That's it. These players either had significantly interrupted preseasons or injury interrupted seasons: May, Jones, Harmes, Petracca, Viney, Lever, Brayshaw, KK, Hibberd, Stretch, Melksham, Hannan, AVB, JKH, TMac, Weid, OMac, Hore and Jetta. We made, against all expectations, the PF playing fantastic footy coached and managed by the group of FD staff that is now undergoing significant change. My very strong view is that most of our issues this year were bourne out of our PS and injury status, the names above show that. The major change we will have next year is a fit list and a good preseason. If we have that we can match it with anyone. Our issues this year were not those in the FD who had proved their abilities with a reasonably fit list in the previous year. I think change is good for the club, new voices and different views, but I suspect much of that change would have happened anyway. Thanks to all those that stuck by us when we were awful and helped form a serious club = Macca, Misso, Craig, Todd, Jade and others I may have missed.

I agree rjay, I've always thought the best trick in footy was getting the ball. He doesn't.

I beg to differ. I can't confirm or deny these rumours, and that's all they are, regarding coming back in poor condition. And even if they did come back underdone much of that is able to be made up in the preseason. But here is what I do know: These players were in discussions for our best 22 this season:- B: Jetta May Lever HB: Salem OMac Hibberd ? Harmes Oliver Fritsch HF: Petracca Weid ANB F: Melksham TMac Spargo R: Gawn Brayshaw Viney I: Kolo, Jones, AVB, J Smith Others: Hannan, Preuss, Lewis, Stretch, Frost, Hore That's 28 players that I would have expected to form the basis of the team for the season. You can take off and add some of your own but it won't change the arguments below. These players had significantly interrupted Preseasons (17): Jones, Harmes, Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Viney Jetta, May, Lever, Hibberd, Melksham, TMac, Kolo, Hannan, Hore, OMac and Stretch These players had Injury ruined seasons after a good PS (3): Weideman, AVB, JSmith, These players had a full PS and good run at season (8): Salem, Fritsch, ANB, Spargo, Gawn, Preuss, Frost, Lewis I'm working from memory so you can correct me on some of the detao;s but the facts are compelling. 17 or our best 28 players had significantly interrupted PS's and three others had significantly disrupted seasons. It really wouldn't have mattered if they were a bit underdone at the start of PS. Of the 8 players who had a good go at it only Salem, Fritsch, Gawn and Frost were definite best 22 for me and some will add Lewis. That's 4 players and not one midfielder. Now fitness aside, is it any wonder connection from backs to forwards through the midfield was awful. Why? Because they didn't practice over the PS. Is it any wonder our skill level was awful. Why? Because we had a whole lot of NQR players in the team and many who didn't practice over the preseason. The preseason was the issue not the off season, which may have been garnish to the PS issues but it certainly not the steak.

Hey Pennant, read you PM's.

They were at the city road end when I went in preseason around the end of January.

Fritta did the full session training with the mids from memory. Rawlings was with the forwards as they did the goal kicking which consisted of boundary line snaps and kicking to the front of the goal square from 50 out on the boundary. May didn't train with the forwards. Jetts did the full session but as for playing AFL or VFL I've no idea. I'd play him AFL if he's fit enough but really I've no more idea on that or the other changes than anyone else.

Full session. Looked good.

Let's cut to the chase - Gawn did the full session. Rehab - T Smith, Billy, Tom Sparrow, Melk. Billy was running laps and still looks a while away, Tommy and Melk doing some kicking and TSmith mainly running from what I saw but I was a little late. Unsighted: TMac, Hore, Neita, Walker, JSmith, AVB, KK, Garlett The rest all appeared to do the whole session. A real mix of drills, three quarter ground drills, centre clearance work, goal kicking for the forwards, specialist ruck, high marking for the talls, spoiling for Jetts, specie practice for Hannan. I had a good look at Dunkley and liked what I saw. Good by foot and clean hands. Other than that just a normal training session.

A bit like yourself BBO!

Oliver TMac Jones Fritsch Harmes Salem

I think the club leaked the information. It was reported after our disastrous start to the season when media, the footy community and most importantly the fan were focusing so strongly on our failures. Some deflection was needed. Goodwin refused to give his players an excuse publicly, he didn’t want to give them an out and rightly so. It’s a little like injuries. We all know they have a huge impact but we don’t use them as an excuse. So we leaked this information to release the pressure and educate people as to why we were performing poorly. It was a smart and sensible thing to do. I can’t be bothered debating those who think our disastrous preseason is nothing but an excuse only to say if preseasons weren’t important why have one? A poor preseason impacts fitness, skills, connection, confidence, game plan and yes, results. To deny that just denies logic. We’ve all heard a hundred time players who have had great seasons say you can’t do it without a great preseason. But what would they know? Our preseason is probably not the only thing that has gone wrong but in my opinion it’s the core reason. You can cover up a lot of things but preseason’s and injury you can’t.

What happens when the majority of your best 22 players don't have preseasons? Their skill drop off because you haven't trained them or practised them. When your skills drop off your confidence drops off. Confidence is above the shoulders. Poor preseasons clearly impact confidence, particularly when so many players are impacted. I'd contend that many of our "above the shoulders" stem from a poor preseason. And anyway how can you say all our issues are above the shoulders when you've said losing AVB, Melksham and Jetts hasn't helped? Misson reports to the Board we've had a terrible preseason and we will struggle. He was right.

Our 2019 is dead as most here agree. And most are advocating that we plan for next season now. So why wouldn't we practice our game plan for next season now with a team as close as we can to the one we think will play next season? IMO it's why Hannan, Lever and others have played when prima facie they haven't really been ready.

I understand the frustration that goes with players like Smith and AVB getting injuries and not playing this year and certainly there always seems a need on this site to find a scapegoat. But don't people understand the stupidity of diagnosing a players injuries from a distance with little or no knowledge of the medical history of the player or the sequence of events leading to an injury. Do people really think that it's all Dave Misson's fault? Do you think that after over a decade in his role he would make a blatantly stupid decision about a players health and risk a long term injury for a JLT match? I know many here blame Misson and think he's stupid but to me the boot is firmly on the other foot.

I've avoided joining this debate but in response to Goodwin saying “Sam Weideman’s game shouldn’t be underestimated. It’s probably one of the better six possession games I’ve seen from a key forward,”. Your response was: ??? Lolz. Nice one Goody. Realise you’ve got to go into bat for your boy but that’s pushing the barrow a bit far, innit! Now Goody is saying it's probably one of the better 6 possession games he's seen. To justify your response you'd have to identify some better 6 possession games otherwise your response is just plain dumb. So can you point me to some better 6 possession games?