Mad_Melbourne

I guess its all about how we view football, I don't believe he should have attempted to turn 180 to see whether he was clear or not, but again you obviously think he should and that is fair. I relate it to a similar situation where Riley gave the hands out to Brayshaw just outside 50, because he was in space and riley did not want to turn to kick it incase he was under pressure. Giving the first option with the handball to a player who is facing up the field is more often than not the correct option and I think that is the case for most teams

I was pretty sure it got handballed to him and that was why he spread it to a team mate metres in the clear. None the less, Gawn should not have made the skill execution error that he did and if he hit the correct target we were out. Im fairly certain 9/10 if an AFL player recieves a loopy handball just outside defensive 50, he would not have the time to turn around and if he did he would more likely be under significant pressure. By giving it toa team mate in metres of space, it allowed for his team mate to make the best choice and execute better....which he didn't. The thing that annoys me the most is he continually presented and ran hard, but when he recieved the ball and looked up the field there was no real option. Aside from his brain fade where he snapped it towards the boundary line, although there was no option ahead so he really needed to rush it, he was in our top 5-7 yesterday.

I was not suggesting you were, I was more highlighting that the move into the backline could well have been something that saved his career... That said, whilst I agree that White is no superstar, Fitzy did not have a choice who he came up on and he can only beat what is put in front of him. I have been impressed with Fitzy in terms of body positioning for the most part and his spoiling of the football. Had Gawn not attempted to mark the football and just spoiled it through on the goal line then Fitzy would not have had to worry about the tunnel ball issue.

It was the right option for him to handball to a player in space who should have executed the finish better. Gawn kicked it onto the [censored] of a collingwood player when 5m either side were two Melbourne players in the open. Whilst Toumpas could have turned around to look at the option, the slow looping handball he recieved would have made him think pressure was coming so to get it out to a safe in a better position is not at all a mistake. If it were to have been a kick and mark situation then it was completely different. This secondly, was definitely the fault of Lynden Dunn, you dont just turn 180 and handpass it unless there is a call from someone, so he turned to give it to someone he assumed was in space. Lynden Dunn has a habit of calling for the ball when he is in a poor position or covered by the opposition without really understanding that he is not in space. I dont think anyone can be critical of Toumpas game today, it was a great game, not only in terms of finding the football, but his unrewarded running and 21 pressure acts (which he often gets questioned for) was pretty outstanding. I will say that at times he seems panicked with the football, but that is because he looks to give off the quick option, this will get better as he realises he has more time on his hands than he thinks.

The guy behind me at the footy kept saying this and was adamant that the mark in the last quarter that White took from a quick clearance from the stoppage was the "death of fitzy"... What else could he have done yesterday? He beat the opponent he was put on, irrelevant who it was, he was still able to man up and beat Jesse White. This is after I am sure he had all week being told he would be playing on Witts and Grundy when they rested forward. Whilst I think he may struggle to find a match up this week (EDIT: possibly Tom Hickey if he plays), it is not because he has not been playing his role of late and his move to the backline looks to have guaranteed him an extra year of contract, I think at least.

I do think we won the inside 50 count and apart from the first 10 minutes of the game we were consistently winning the count. That said, it was beside the point and Hogan, deservedly so, was in the team of the week. His handpass was exceptional, but his workrate is the thing that impresses me the most, for someone of his height and weight he can cover ground exceptionally.

My favourite was when he claimed that Brett Goodes bump was good, fair play. Not only did goodes leave the ground and make high contact with his shoulder but it was also unnecessary contact and Matt Jones was very lucky to not end up in next week.

I agree! Just for a bit of satire, imagine if Jack Watts had made the skill error that Nathan Jones had made...

The only problem I see with this game is in the first half he played on Ayce Cordy who has been getting thumped at AFL level and in the second half Roughead who is not a recognised ruckman. That said, his competitiveness is what he excels at and if he can continue his efforts around the ground and break even in the ruck contest then that is a good result. Bit more of a challenge facing Lobbe and Ryder. Really good to see that White is improving at the level, could well be a player of real importance in years to come (even if he is a rookie at current) due to his good disposal coming out of the back half.

Came across to me as "why is his average better considering he only played 1 game?" Gave me a laugh, but neither here nor there. Apologies

This made me laugh, his average is skewed from one performance as he was able to contribute two goal assists compared to the per game figures of Watts and JKH

Who is able to play the same role that he does, have the same impact with the football and on the scoreboard that is playing at Casey? No one. It is quite apparent you, and others, feel that he should spend time in Casey because he has been in our top 15 or so players or based around some percieved skill errors. Crossy continually turns the football over and looks slow, Angus Brayshaw made multiple disposal errors in the third quarter, Nathan Jones dropped a chest mark which resulted in a goal, Ben Newton dropped one coming back in which he only really put one arm out for it and many more. Based on your poor assessment of football they should all be dropped to Casey to find some form. The other thing I think that is pivotal to why he is continually being picked is individual players have a set list of KPIs in which the club will assess for individual players, it is tailored to what is expected for each individual in the role that they are playing or what the coaching staff expect from a weekly basis. If the players do not reach required level in these stats, more so than "disposals" or "perceived toughness on the demonland forum", that is when they are likely to be considered for the drop.

i had this older supporter behind me on Friday and everything Watts did he would continue to whinge and whine about how poor it was "handball to Vandenberg, just kick the goal yourself, oh your so pathetic" was my personal highlight. It made me think he was not the full quid, after putting myself through reading all 9 pages of this (I am clearly not all there) but i have come to the conclusion that if we do not have some of the stupidest "supporters" we are definitely in the top 4. Watts effort was at an AFL standard, did he make some execution errors? yes. did everyone? yes. People making statements about poor workrate or lack of effort are clearly not watching the game and really have little to no idea about football and it is just embarassing to read all your dribble.

The only major benefit I believe that Dawes provides is the fact that he is a key forward with much more experience and strength than a Hogan. I feel that he still does most of what you have said up here, but the biggest is take the pressure off Hogan. I think his value is often missed because everyone expects goals. His leadership on the field and instruction is vital for team balance. My other major point is sure, if we had the luxury of multiple players of his calibre playing in the 2s then he could be dropped, but we don't. For the same reason I wouldn't drop Hogan if he was to fall in form, they both are more important playing 1s than 2s

Understand where you are coming from, but the whole basis that two players on Hogan would be completely redundant for his development was my point. Pederson, Gawn, Fitzy who are all in the 2s would not provide more of a contest/take the heat away from Hogan. I just don't honestly understand how people can't see the value Dawes provides regardless of impact on the scoreboard.

Players drop off their opponents all the time in an attempt to effect the contest, because Howe was doing so and taking marks in front of Walker does not mean that they were playing two on him, but watch matches from last year and see that they genuinelly would post two defenders on Dawes.

I am pretty sure the two stats that the count in regards to tackles are tackles made & tackles missed. That makes the comparrison pretty clear, although players who lie on the pack do not get credited with a tackle. Missed tackles is almost a more important stat than tackles, in my opinion, as it is pretty obvious the team that is continually missing tackles will be conceding much more posession to the opposition.

I agree with all that you have said, I think "toughness" is often misconstrued by alot of supporters of football and Melbourne in general .... but I was happy to see the little tangle that happened because it showed a little bit of passion from our players and I loved seeing Dean Kent absolutely rag doll someone, but what I was most impressed with out of it all was that Angus Brayshaw walked in and dragged Nathan Jones out effectively diffusing the situation.

Neither should be drooped and people saying that Dawes should be dropped are equally as stupid as those calling for Watts to be dropped. Structure is vital for a good team and the fact that we are able to play Dawes in a key post directly protects Hogan from playing on two opponents. Whilst Dawes does not mark, he does a hell of a lot of grunt work and looks to compete and bring the ball down extremely well, but at the end of the day we have no better replacement for either of Gawn or Watts and not even by a short margin, by the length of the straight, so why would we bother dropping either. At the end of the day when it comes down to the first 10 players named on a week by week basis Dawes and Watts would be up there or there abouts. In my opinion this did not significantly change the game, the fact that we were outscored 6.4-0.1 or something similar from stoppages is what changed the game, and the fact that we had the same amount of scoring shots from the ball being in our forward half for a massive chunk of the game was what caused the result.

I agree that he knew what he was doing, he protected the space where the ball was going to land incredibly well and the real reason his body moved was because of the Talia contact. He did not actually get to have a proper run up at the football due to him moving away from the football initially and he only got 4 steps to launch into the contest. Is he going to crash the pack there, no, but what he did exceptionally was protect the area for the ball drop and this meant he was going to be first to react to whatver happened. With your coaches hat on, was that not the right decision, not only did he protect the space but he broke even on a high kick into forward 50 with two defenders coming forward and was able to keep his feet, win the football and have a goal assist?

Wayne Carey defended Watts as well, so i guess that doesn't count for anything? Jack Watts could learn a few things from Jesse Hogan, but Jesse Hogan could surely learn a few things of Jack too. At the end of the day, most of this forum don't like Watts because he is not what they expected to get out of a number 1 draft pick who was destined to be the key forward we desperately needed. Now that we have another key position forward let him paly the high half forward role and let his work rate, decision making and use of football be what defines him rather than his ability to clunk contested marks and crash packs. At the end of the day Jack Watts is by far our best decision maker, ball user and has something that not many people on our list have and that is time with the ball in hand. He will have played 100 games soon and will end up being a 200 game player for the club, whilst he will never be a key forward he will be pivotal in our future success, due to his assets that very few players actually have.

I am yet to see anyone completely overhaul their kicking style to much effect, let him do what he feels is comfortable and he will get the best results. For what its worth, the thing I like most about Hogan is that he is a more than decent field kick and looks to bring his team mates into the game by passing it to someone in a better position when he is near the 50m arc. The fluid/lazy kicking style of Jeff Gartlett has not yet been working for us, but no doubt he will eventually have a game where he is able to kick 6 and i really hope its against Richmond.

OUT: Frost, JKH IN: Pederson, Michie although the fact that Richmond really only play Ivan Maric in the ruck is a major benefit to us for selection this week. Michie is the only certainty and should come in due to exposed form, if Frost is out maybe we will bring Pederson in, but could also be Gawn in an attempt to ensure we stretch both their defense but also try to dominate through the stoppages.

Correct, but also does missed opportunities in front of goals, especially ones that should have been kicked. What he offers that not much else do is a consistently high workrate despite very few bench minutes, playing as a high half forward is a tough role and we do not have anyone who can replace him in this position in my opinion.

Decision making is something that Jack Watts has that a lot of our list does not have, admittedly I am a big fan of his skill set, work rate and ability to influence games with very few disposals. The fact that he made a couple of poor errors when dropping uncontested marks does not put him as worst on for the day. Jack Watts has a few things that alot of our team does not have which is why he is a vital cog in our list, will he be traded, possibly as Roos will take any offer that is benefitial, but do I think he will be traded, very unlikely as he is definitely in our best 22 and in our top 5 most important players for the next 5 years.