DeeSpencer

Based on the intraclub the team I'd go for would be: FB: Dunn Frawley Terlich HB: Grimes McDonald Strauss C: Watts Jones Vince HF: Toumpas Hogan Salem FF: JKH Pedersen Howe Foll: Spencer Tyson Cross Int: Michie, Matt Jones, Trengove, McKenzie, Blease, Jamar S: Fitzpatrick, Kent Unlucky: Clisby, Georgiou, Byrnes, Gawn, Evans, Bail The rest: Barry, Nicholson, Hunt, Harmes, Jetta, King Rested/Injured: Dawes, Viney, Clark, Riley, Garland, Tapscott So I've picked who I thought was the best 22 based on the intraclub plus added Watts and Trengove who have been in full training and hopefully are right to go. Judging by the standard of running they were doing plus that they started training in the main group it's not unreasonable that Viney and Dawes would be available but I'm leaning towards them not being. The most interesting thing might just be whether Roos picks Salem and/or JKH.

Considering the priority for most midfield prospects is fitness, fitness, core strength then more fitness I doubt he's put on much. What I see with Salem is it's just hard to get a read on his size. He's stocky, with solid legs but has a slim upper body. Put him in a tight footy jumper and he probably looks pretty solid, put him in a t shirt he looks pretty slim. I think the reality is he's not a stick but far from an 18 year old Jones or Tapscott and he's probably getting much more work running in the legs than building up big arms all of a sudden. Toumpas this year looks much leaner than last year and that's a result of getting hard fit not because he lost muscle. Salem might do something similar but he's a bit stockier so he might not. Either way the main time you can notice a difference in a players frame is after the 6 weeks off when they come back in November. The rest of the time I think they only progress slowly.

They need a nickname. The Tabbouleh twins? The Ottoman Empire? The pita partners?

Found some ball, Made a key effort to spoil that then resulted in a chain of handballs (led by Salem) that resulted in a shot on goal. He wasn't bad. Foot skills still an issue but otherwise ok. I'd say he's ahead of Tapscott, maybe Byrnes as well. About level with Evans and Blease. And if Roos decides to be very cautious with Kennedy-Harris and Salem then I'd have him some chance for round 1. What it pays to remember is Bail is a top 5 endurance athlete at the club. Therefore he is much more naturally suited playing high half forward and rotating in to the midfield. He is also an above average over head mark for a small guy. The 2 knocks are he doesn't find enough ball (which wasn't a problem initially but became one under Neeld) and can he use it. He was a positive in finding the ball today.

I'd like a forum for crazy wacko ideas like my great 'recruit Tim Tebow' thread. If we all propose a bunch of out there concepts then one of them will be genius.

Agree with pretty much all your points. Matt Jones is an interesting one. He was clearly one of the better accumulators out there particularly early and has the ability to take a handball receive from congestion and from a clever run/angles he'll get out in space, but his worst turnovers particularly are when he puts it over a forwards head. It's sloppy kicking and undoes his great work. It will be tight but at the moment he'll probably sneak in to round 1 but how long he stays depends on his kicking. Bail is another like that and was one of the better outside mids today. Blease's efforts were encouraging, leading at the ball hard with pace and at one stage he showed what he can do by taking someone one. I liked his effort today but it's been years in the making and now he has to fix his decision making and skill deficiencies as well. Also I wouldn't be too harsh on Riley who did a tonne of running on the other oval whilst Viney did pretty relaxed warm up drills. By the time they had started their long sprints around the oval it seemed Viney had played 1/4 and Riley 3/4, that's how I would see it. I was more impressed with Viney than disappointed with Riley. Remember Riley only started running at training in the new year so he's been going for about 4 weeks and has about 8 more weeks before they'll deem him fit to play. I see it like a Melbourne cup horse and he's still in August or early September. I'm hoping Viney on the other hand is back in full training soon and can play the second nab cup (I'm guessing it will be hard for those who didn't play today to play next week with those ill being the exception).

Decent set of training exercises until the game started. 3 quarters. White had the stronger midfield and by having Grimes and Frawley probably the stronger backline. First quarter saw the ball sit in white's forward half as Dunn, McDonald, Strauss and a few others tried to methodically work the ball out. They moved the ball with some control but a bad Blease turnover and a few others undid a lot of the bad work. Toumpas got the first goal on Strauss due to a turnover from someone else but then Toumpas got his other goals on various opponents and without discrediting him too much he was a bit right place right time I sensed. The focus seemed a lot on moving the ball from the back half without rushing and whilst the kicking wasn't too bad it didn't seem to break open. But then that's often how games go. Being forced in to a long kick to a contest down the line isn't neccesarily a bad thing and has to happen especially on smaller grounds. Their wasn't quite the level of physicality that made it a real match. It was quite odd to watch actually. The ruck contests involved the ruckmen bodying up not taking runs and jumps. The play was often reset from tackles to a free kick not a ball up. Q1. Standouts Jamar - won the ruck contests against Gawn and got involved around the ground Salem - was involved in the first 3 scores. Beautiful kick and knows how to get space on his left. Picks the ball up off the deck well. Wouldn't surprise me at all if he plays some super VFL footy from day one Strauss - an ambitious handball to start and later an ambitious long kick but some of his handballs around the edges of packs set up team mates, was used as a sweeper Matt Jones - lots of run and found space for the blue midfield Michie - Clearance work, inside work and outside work Toumpas - on the end for a couple of goals Q2. Standouts N. Jones - got involved in a lot of play Frawley - was opposed to young Westrupp who after getting a bath down back was made to play full forward, but Chip had run and presence Vince - started finding the ball and using his long kick Q3. Standouts Jay KH - started in the second quarter and kept bobbing up. A great run from half back where he just held the ball until the option came Spencer - a big strong mark and accurate kick to a lead and getting involved in play Tyson - started to win some clearances and show his poise in congestion and get a few outside touches. The overall slow kicking from half back wasn't amazing but it wasn't too bad either. Most things were just standard I'd say given the type of simulation it was. The biggest improvement is the handballing around contested packs is now much sharper and did actually lead to guys getting free in space. It was the one thing that stood out to me that really looked like a huge improvement.

Guys (and sue) I was thinking at late notice those attending tomorrows training could pick 3 or 4 players to focus there eyes on in the intraclub and post observations. That way we get a view of a lot of the list. I'll nominate myself to Strauss, Michie and Hunt. If others can do the same for other players then that would be great.

And another point to this ludicrous topic - this is the new PJ era as CEO, football is our core business not promotional videos and articles because no matter how well they are written and produced they wont sell as many memberships or get people to games like wins will. I'd love us to have the biggest and best media and communications team in the AFL but first we need the best coaches and fitness staff.

I always think these things are done to satisfy the masses and not the really engaged supporters that we are on demonland. We always want more info than the club wants to give. Same goes for the injury updates from Dave Misson.

How to win a game without a star mid...besides that they have one in Mitchell. And a depending work horse in Sewell. And Luke Hodge. And Jordan Lewis who stepped up big time in the grand final. And one of the best running wingman in the game in Smith. The run of Brad Hill. The luxury of Shaun Burgoyne. I get that Hawthorn don't have an all conquering midfield but they must be still a top 4 unit.

Strange turn of phrase from the burgatron but technically correct I believe. Progressing positively would be much more common and clearer.

That was after Robbo's first year though right? When he then got fit and within 6 years might have even won a B+F? If Jetta makes it back on the senior list it will be Lazarus like. 4th round rookie talents don't make it very often so I'm not unhappy that we kept Jetta, one thing he can do is support Dom Barry and JKH and maybe that additional leadership that comes with being the most experienced Indigenous player might actually help his own game.

You can only pick 22. No point promoting someone if they wont play and therefore if you aren't going to promote someone may as well leave the injured player on the main list in case they make an early recovery. Also I think promoting a rookie comes with a pay rise so no point incurring the cost if you wont get any return from it. By the way as Riley got injured in a game my understanding is he'll be getting match payments until he returns to the VFL so we will want him back as soon as possible from a financial point of view.

Being demoted to the rookie list is a good indication it's pretty much closed. Really I think he's just too short and slow for AFL unless he has some extra top attributes. I understand moving him to the backline to make use of his tackling and trying get him more ball but I don't know how you get a game as a small defender if you don't have some size or speed.

Don't mind Adelaide - I actually like a lot of their current players and the way they play. Haven't dealt with their supporters much Brisbane - They were good champions and good to watch in their 3 peat and now have been pretty irrelevant Freo - Got some players who are great to watch and they play hard. I've got a respect for them right now Port - young midfield, exciting come back wins, besides their bogan supporters I don't mind them Western Bulldogs - I like the battlers from out west as long as they stay there. I like a club with some soul Gold Coast - G Ablett and some young talent and they built a competitive team and trained them up I don't mind them (at this stage) Dislike Richmond - because they are Richmond. Sydney - their COLA allowance and a decent dose of whinging if they don't get looked after annoys me GWS - they deliberately set up a team to lose to focus hard on a premiership and manipulated the rules as hard as they could West Coast - they definitely tried to hide that a large number at their club had drug problems and they seem to have a list of front runners right now. And their Melbourne fans are massive bandwagoners Geelong - I hate they because of how good they've been but I respect them for the same reasons St Kilda - annoying supporters, annoying players, stupid off field antics, dumb on field decisions and got their stuff in order and developed an elite group of young players - Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Goddard, Dal Santo, Hayes, Montagna and more and still couldn't win Hate Carlton - Cheats and bullies Collingwood - Because they are Collingwood Essendon - Combine Carlton and Collingwood and that's how I feel about Essendon Hawthorn - Mainly I hate their supporters. They aren't the family club. They are the brat kids, painful parents, spotty faced teens and arrogant young adults club. Plus Al Clarkson should be known as one of the great coaches but instead is such an angry belittling man North Melbourne - I hate them because right now they have got so many things right that at the same time we have stuffed up. Especially drafting and list management. Brad Scott's whinging doesn't help their case, nor does Boomer Harvey. For a small club that were on their knees a few years ago I think it's time for some Melbourne fans to swallow a bit of humble pie with North. Every time I see some muppet on here refer to them as 'Norf' I think we should show some respect until we can beat them

King - miles away, no. Harmes - maybe give him a shot in the NAB cup but I'd be shocked and also disappointed if he's in the team as a back up mid/forward from day 1. So it comes down to Jetta and Georgiou. Right now locked in for our defense would be Frawley, McDonald and Grimes. The other 3 spots will come from Garland (if he's back in time) and then take your pick of Dunn, Clisby, Terlich, Strauss and guys like Jetta and Georgiou. So I'd give them a shot in the NAB challenge to see if the make it but I doubt it. Dunn's 2013 whilst full of usual Dunn mindless football should still be good enough to have him in front of Georgiou. And the same can be said about Terlich and Clisby for Jetta. I think a lot of us have a soft spot for Jetta because he's a great tackler and has really nice evasive agility skills. But he's also very short meaning he can only play on the smallest of resting midfielders and small forwards, he's not very good at finding the ball, he doesn't break the lines with run and his kicking can be neat and tidy but he seems to max out at about 40m distance. I'm tipping no one gets elevated unless we get injuries to our backline.

No part I was just putting a statistical case to my point of view. Do you have an estimate number of goals you are bullish about him kicking? I'm thinking 25 goals justifies the hype and is a fantastic effort yet is still cautious in terms of how many matches he actually impacts. You are keen for him to play every game and to impact matches and by that I presume you mean at least 5 or so games where he is at the pointy end of the best players. Does that mean 40 goals?

So Aidan Riley goes on the LTI list. Right now I don't see the rookie promotion getting used but it's a little carrot to Jetta and Georgiou to keep training hard and maybe get a shot in the NAB challenge. Particularly Georgiou is worth seeing in the Nab challenge I think. He's an unknown commodity, Garland is injured, key position depth is limited, let's give a third tall defender known for shut down work a shot. Maybe start Frawley on Riewoldt if he plays and then at half time put Georgiou on him for a bit of a baptism of fire.

Cameron: 16 games, 10 disposals, 29 goals Franklin: 20 games, 10 disposals, 21 goals I'm pretty sure they would be the best 2 junior seasons by young forwards since 2000. Doubt the other top line forwards would be even close to that and that includes Cloke, Roughead, Josh Kennedy, Tippett, Hawkins, Riewoldt(s) - noting Nick played back early. 18 games, 25 or so goals, a bag of 4 or 5 and maybe another game where he takes 8 or 10 marks as a half forward target will be a super season from the young man.

I'm being cautious with Hogan. After watching Daniher - last year who's VFL performances weren't too far off Hogan - struggle with the pace of AFL I'm more cautious. Hogan is obvious a superior athlete in terms of speed, strength and fitness and has had the extra preseason but he's still so young for a key position player. I expect a few games that make us really excited but a lot that aren't overly special.

No you need some sort of identification for the fans and officials so numbers are important. But you could make a case for names and scratching the numbers but you'd find numbers are much easier to recognise from a distance. Anyway I'm happy there's a trial. I think it should be implemented for this 18 days of NAB challenge, in fact it makes perfect sense to do it in the practice matches when the commentators struggle to pick the players most of the time. I'm just not convinced it will add anything on a permanent basis.

Wont be a disaster compared to 2 wins but what if we were awful in the first half of the year, didn't win a game and then won 4/11 on the way home including beating a finals team and pushing others until the last quarter and ended the year with a percentage in the mid 80's. Possibly a bit unlikely but not totally unprecedented. Personally I'm setting the bar at a percentage of 80%. If that only means 4 or 5 wins and even if that means we go down early in games before adding cheap goals later in games to get respectful margins then I'll still take it. Losing sucks. But being incompetent and never even been in games sucks so much more.

If we win 9 games that would likely put us ahead of about 5 other teams. I'd like to know which other teams our list is stronger than because besides GWS (who will also improve from last year) and St Kilda I think every team still has an edge on us. As a starting point I'd argue every team in the comp besides GWS has at least 1 midfielder better than Nathan Jones OR at least 2 or 3 players at the same level as him. Plus GWS have Callan Ward who is equal to Jones. Until Hogan, Viney, Toumpas, Salem get 50 games and a few others step up a notch we really haven't added too much immediate impact. Vince replaces Sylvia, Cross is much more consistent than Rodan and then we've added Michie and Tyson with combined experience of about half a season. Those changes might result in 1 extra win but the improvement of the group in total can still improve by 30 percentage points and get 3 more wins (a significant improvement) and we are looking at 6 wins not 9. I think talent wise we are on track for a percentage of about 85% with the likelihood over the next few years of developing much more in the midfield and actually being better than the average and making the 8. But the first step for this year will be getting in to games and building confidence. Mainly I'd ask why would you be annoyed if something doesn't happen when Roos has just come out and said don't expect things to change over night.

I don't like your tone. You've dismissed my arguments fair enough but of course they are subjective, it's putting a name on a jumper it's a subjective thing. And I never mentioned anything to do with comfort with change. I'm all for change if I think it's a good idea. What about that it detracts from the team nature of the sport. For that reason several of the bigger college football teams in America don't have the names on the jerseys.