Johnny Karate

Both worked their arses off and were simply outclassed. There is no shame in that IMO.

Fair enough, TBH I haven't really seen much of Neaves but had heard he had done some good things at Sandy - although I guess Jamar & Johnson rip it up in the VFL and have been found wanting so far in the big leagues. I guess the wider issue is how poorly our rucks seem to be performing and the lack of depth we have in this critical area.

If we do - should Shane Neaves be promoted? Our ruck stocks are pretty poor to say the least at the moment. Putting Neaves on the senior list would at the very least put some upward pressure on Jamar who really needs to make some sort of impact on games.

I have seen this and share your disappointment that people are bagging a young kid (it is no way his fault that we are losing). Although I haven't seen people calling for Bate to be traded. I disagree with your comments about Bell and think you may be slightly prejudiced based on some of his more unflattering games in the past. This year has not been a happy time for us (understatement of the century) but Bell has been one of a few shining lights - on form he would be in our top five best this year along with Bruce, Jones, McDonald and Moloney.

A very honest player who has got the most out of his ability. If he had clean disposal by foot he would be up among the game's elite current day players. His form has been a bright spot in the early dark days of this season.

I don't really have a problem with it as it stands it is a quirky rule and as far as I know unique to our game - it's luck of the draw and isn't biased to or against any clubs. It isn't Geelong's fault that they have attained star players from the rule and we haven't. The AFL really needs to stop tinkering with the rules because at some point they are going to go too far and alienate everyone.

Winning games should be our no.1 priority, I'm not prepared to start conceding the year and looking to 2010 yet. However I'd be disappointed if these guys (yet to debut) didn't get a game this year: 1) Petterd 2) Buckley Pretty self evident - two young midfielders who should be developed enough to handle AFL footy. 3) Newton RR has made some very strong arguments for him to be held back until he "gets it right". I put Newton up with some trepidation, however if and when Neitz and/or Robbo get back in the side the time may be right to give young Newton a taste of the big league. Even if it's only in bursts on and off the bench to play as a third tall forward. Hopefully he "gets it right" and can get an MFC guernsey in 07.

You're thinking of Sam Fisher. Leigh Fisher is about 5'6 & has played about 10 games. God help the Saints if L.Fisher has to line up at full back! As for the thread topic I think Bell should get a shot in the midfield especially if Beamer is out. I think he would step up and play a simlar role to Moloney - hard at it, rough as guts and long penetrating kicks (a couple of goals would be nice too).

I wonder if our (well formeley our) Jeffrey Farmer will be appealing the remainder of his sentence given this dangerous precedent. I have no doubt that there have been some pretty disgusting barbs directed at him down the years and most likely leading up to his most recent infringement. Although the above point doesn't really matter - as the AFL have now set a precedent of players getting off striking charges due to unproven provocation. As Jaded so eloquently put it the AFL tribunal have got this wrong, so totally and completely wrong!

What Nasher said. Worsfold allegedly said horrible some things during his career that to me we're way lower than (As Nasher beautifully put) these off the cuff remarks by a yobbo. It hasn't been against the rules of the game in the past, it isn't against the rules of the game now and until it is I won't have a problem with sledging as long as it doesn't dive into the illegal act of racial or religous vilification. That is my p.o.v and for people to suggest that because of it I have no morals, am siding with or should be compared to those who perform sexual assault towards or upon children is farcical, disgusting and ludicrous.

Too right, Y_M There are no rules against what he did ATM - so to me it is all gamesmanship. I have no problem with people doing whatever it takes to win within the rules. I argue this point with anybody who complains about the Australian cricket team and their sledging.

So you are ramming home your arguments by delibrately partaking in the things you are speaking out against? How clever.

Like I said in an earlier post, unfortunately ATM it is, until there is a concerted effort from the AFLPA for the AFL to do something about it. Again drawing the line is a problem. Although it has hardly any relevance to this topic - I was trying to put across the point that I felt there was a way to put a view across construcitvely without engaging in personal abuse and just downright disrespect, a concept you have clearly failed to have grasped. I would hardly call it sooking. Indeed.

*Sigh* I am aware of this and this has nothing to do with what I said. If I had said genocide is against the law then you may have a point. Racial vilification IS against the law, "You're *insert family member here*" jokes aren't A systematic attack on someone's race or culture is surely a more personal attack on someone than a throw away line about their tattoo or *insert family member of player B here, that player A claims to have had sexual relations with in some way, despite player A never having even concievably met player B's family member* IMO. It was more or less an extension of a "Your mum is.." crack. To racially vilify someone is to claim someone is inferior because of something they had no part in, which is their own background. It is judging someone based on a cultural stereotype. What Peter Everitt did to Scott Chisholm makes Selwood look like a choirboy. It's a hard one and near on impossible to control. Ultimately the push has to come from the players and through the right medium. I know you don't condone Headland's reaction, to me it is his reaction that has done more harm than good. Selwood's intentions were to get under Headland's skin and he did so successfully. This debate often rages about the Australian Cricket Team and their sledging - to me if teams or players have problems with what is being said on the field in sport they need to complain to the governing bodies and push those bodies to make regulations against personal and derogatory remarks. But again where do you draw the line? "You're ugly" could be construed as a derogatory remark. Until that time comes sledging is part and parcel of the game and players just have to cop it sweet. It is a test of mental strength. It's rather funny that. I hope these aren't the same people who are calling for a win at all costs approach and ruthlessness at the MFC. Where do you draw the line indeed?

If you read either Scoop or my earlier posts on this subject, you'll hopefully understand where the line is drawn. Also as Nasher said the "you don't understand if you aren't a parent" line is complete bull. Those who truly don't understand are those who haven't stepped on to a footy field and copped crap before. You either get sucked in by people talking unmitigated crap (which is generally the price of free speach) or you don't. That's all.

True. Apparently M.Voss used to threaten to kill rookies, debutants, young players etc. on the opposition teams as a form of intimidation. It isn't nice but it's all about how you react to it.

For starters racial vilification is against the law in many states. Anyway most players who have been racially vilified in my experience have done so with class. Winmar's gesture to the Vic Park ferals was classic and Michael Long made an official complaint. Even Chris Lewis who was always a bit of a loose cannon and would've put up with more than most didn't go as insane as Headland on the weekend IIRC. It may seem an oxymoron but to me attacking someone on the basis of their race or culture is a lot more personal than silly little primary school cracks about "Your mum, your sister, your family" etc.

Agreed it's more or less an extension of a "You're mum is..." crack. Headland shouldn't have been sucked in and I think it's rather pathetic that he is using this to try and minimise his thoroughly deserved suspension.

I think it's all a bit of a storm in a teacup. Headland is a headcase. His reaction was way over the top, if he was smart he would've kept his emotions in check during the game and if he was still incensed by what Selwood had allegedly said he would've made a formal complaint to match officials and the AFL after the game. Instead he's trying to use it to vindicate his concious decision to act like a complete [censored] for the remainder of the game and post match. IIRC the AFL did nothing 3 years ago when Montgomery made some disgusting comments to Ramanauskas, without knowing anything about Headland's daughters health situation, - I'd say Montgomery makes Selwood the trash talker seem like a choir boy. When I was playing footy at a local level I used to hear some terrible things about my mother, sister etc. You just have to learn to ignore it. Sad but true.

I'll go with the worst case scenario; hypothetically these players are out: Rivers, Moloney, Sylvia, Pickett These players are confirmed as out: Neitz, Robbo, Johnstone, Frawley, McLean, Bartram In: Bizzell, C.Johnson, Dunn Out: Johnstone, Moloney, Wheatley B: Whelan - Carroll - P.Johnson HB: Bizzell - Ferguson - C.Johnson C: Bell - Jones - Ward HF: Brown - Miller - Dunn F: Davey - Holland - Green R: White - Bruce - McDonald I: Jamar - Yze - Bate - Godfrey E: Buckley - Petterd - Wheatley I just feel Bizzell will be a better option than Wheatley who seems to have poor form ATM. Bell probably needs to go onto a wing and try and play a Moloney role. I'd like to see C.Johnson play off half back in his natural position he can hopefully give us some run. Brown and Ward will need to play midfield, our team is overloaded with flankers ATM so it's time for the more experienced players to go into the middle and lead. I'd like to see Bate play in bursts in the guts ditto Yze - who can be pretty creative at clearances. Dunn can give us another target up forward and can kick goals.

That's because it is in the coach's job description to do so and he's paid to do it. 'Supporter' is a voluntary position. Anyone hoping somebody fails (player or coach) just to prove they were right or vindicate their vendettas cannot call themselves a supporter IMO.

I wasn't accusing posters of not going to games but I think the attitude that people who are trying to be positive and offer support to a team under seige are accused of being blind and supporting mediocrity. Putting on the jumper and jumping into the bullring deserves respect. I hope whoever plays on match day does well and proves me wrong even if I disagree with their initial selection in the side. Anyone who doesn't is playing favourites and doesn't have the right to then turn around and accuse Daniher of doing the same. It is not different to Daniher but the reality is whether you like it or not he is coach. Whilst he is coach he deserves a level of respect and support. Your last point is what I'm getting at, hoping somebody loses their job and doesn't do well for an organisation we all support seems a bit macabre to me.

Seekers, FWIW I also think Daniher is a realist and understands that anything other than top four will probably se him not get another contract. I have disagreed with some of the things he has done (particularly during matches!) down the years, however to reach the highest level of coaching and playing AFL commands some level of respect. Coaching is by no means an easy gig at any level especially in the AFL where fortunes (and supporters) can be fickle. This thread isn't directed at people like you or Jaded who give a realistic perspective of the situation. It's more directed at the litany of morans who write things along the line of "ZOMG I hope he lose his jarb as we will b sooo much betterer under Garry Lyon or Michael Voss!!1!1" I just find it sad that there are people who seem to be enjoying our and Daniher's plight at the moment! Because those fates are very much intwined.

Sage words, my friend. It amazes me how people think they can create positive change with negative bitching and moaning!

Love your positivity BFP! Circumstances are a little different as our injury list is longer than this time last year. However all it takes is a little momentum within a game, confidence will come and we can hopefully chalk up a win. After a win we can get on a roll during the season and really turn things around. GO DEES!