Whispering_Jack

Interestingly, on today's Offsiders, Francis Leach seemed far more conciliatory towards AFL clubs that are considered to be rorting the system. This time the subject matter was the AFL's decision to put an end to dealing with Chris Judd's third party deal with Visy as being outside the salary cap. This time Leach had no trouble with that deal and instead he blamed the AFL for allowing it in the first place when we all knew that the Visy ambassadorship was a load of carp and a blatant way of circumventing the salary cap rules. The parallel of course is that after the AFL's pronouncements about the legality of Carlton's conduct in the Kreuzer Cup season when the Blues perfected the process of experimentation to a T, Melbourne was entitled to follow suit and experiment to its heart's content. I don't understand Leach's inconsistency here. Does anyone know which AFL club he supports?

Simon Eishold

Beat me to it but at least I have another chance.

Got it now. It's that rock n roll cruise in Sydney. Freudian slip.

That's the one ... don't know where I got O'Keefe from.

Club twitter: So, with only a couple of training sessions left before the AFL National Draft on Thursday evening, the consensus is that we'll be targeting midfielders at this draft and we should get a good one with pick four. The task of those who are going to training on Monday morning is to size up our midfielders and tell us what type if we end up in a position to take either:- • Jonathan O'Rourke; • Jimmy Toumpas or • Oliver Wines.

OK then, we'll play the game ... time for the second Clue ... Who am I ..... 1st Clue) I am now with another AFL club, but once allegedly went to an alleged gangster's funeral? I am...? Who am I ..... 2nd Clue) The club I now play for is well known for serial rorting of the rules including salary cap breaches and tanking experimenting in games. We train at a ground sometimes called Pricefixer Park. I am...?

I think I have the answer. Can I have another shot before the next clue?

You've posted here by mistake. You need to go the Who Am I Quiz thread.

If anyone needs further reminding of the proposition I put in my previous post, I commend them to view last week's edition on catch up TV of ABC's Offsiders programme (11/11/12) which featured Wilson as a panellist. The others were Roy Masters and Francis Leach and they were as one in their groupthink in condemning Melbourne as being guilty without charge of ... er, alleged "match fixing". It's no longer called "tanking" or "experimentation", no other AFL club was mentioned. Needless to say, no real evidence was presented but it never is when you're putting on a show trial. Goebells and Joe McCarthy would have been proud.

If there's one thing this is not about it's the idea of sparing the club and its officials from scrutiny for their actions. You're quite right in pointing out that a strong club needs to be able to respond in those circumstances but, in this case (because of the legal ramifications) it can't even do that at this point in time. However, the core of what this is about is the practice of engaging in a McCarthyist witch hunt against one AFL club and its officials using ad hominem attacks based on rumour and innuendo, without proof and with the aim of trashing the club's brand and affecting people's livelihoods. To extend this to the giving of succor and legitimacy to the perpetrator of those attacks is what I find totally unacceptable but it should be noted that nobody (as far as I'm aware) has been prevented from expressing that point of view on this thread.

I'd really be worried if the blokes were photographed in the company of Caroline Wilson but this bloke - pfft!!! Fairfax is intent on becoming Australia's News of The World.

Martin Flanagan's viewpoint - Cut program inspired cultural unity

I'm just wondering why he doesn't apply to a university to write a Masters Thesis or a PhD on the subject. He's certainly getting there on the volume of content.

Well it sounds shocking and awful but what's the substance behind the allegation. Wilson's becoming very good at writing nothing articles.

I think what Fan is alluding to is that it's good to see that we rally around the flag and stick up for our own in times of "crisis" as many of us have done here and yet, when the season's on, there are those who don't mind sticking the boots into our own players (often in the most cutting and unkind manner), especially when the chips are down and the team's losing. I'm not averse to criticism of anyone at the club if its warranted, but outright abuse of players, officials, coaches etc shouldn't be tolerated (and won't be if the mods here do their jobs properly). But I think that's part of the reason for the strident defence of some of the club personnel in this debate. They do their job and its not easy, and then they get bagged for having been incompetent but with not much more to back it up other than the bald accusation. Having been involved at club, league and district level in a couple of different sports at a junior level, I know how easy it is for critics to attack hard working officials who, for the most part, do their jobs properly. Perhaps, what we need is to ditch our code of conduct and just replace it with the golden rule.

I'm thinking along the lines of the balance of the team and the need for different midfield types. Wines would no doubt fit in well but Toumpas would give us an extra dimension in terms of outside pace and brilliance. If you take into account the fact that Toumpas was carrying a hip injury throughout most of the Under 18 championships it doesn't even become a close call. He's well ahead of Wines in my estimation on what I've seen of each of them (which admittedly is only a handful of under 18 carnival games and highlights clips).

I was kidding last week when I wrote of Wilson rummaging around garbage bins and about the club bootstudder being interviewed but that seems to be where this is all going now. It's high farce and becoming more than embarrassing for her and the investigators feeding her this bilge. Demetriou should be aware that the entire investigative process is heading towards complete derailment. In all this, Lynden Dunn stands out as the likely hero. Wilson states that he is "one player several Melbourne officials and former officials believed to have staged an unofficial protest during ¾ time of the Richmond game ..." Well that's odd because there's no evidence that any official or former official instructed Dunn or any player to try to lose the game. Further, Melbourne was IIRC in front at ¾ time of that game so what exactly was he unofficially protesting about? The only answer is that he, like McLean and possibly others, might have been unhappy about the general perception out there among the fans that it wasn't in the interests of the club to win many more matches from that stage of the season onwards. That's fair enough but it's no crime or offence for supporters to want their club to get the best possible draft position at the end of the year. Nor for that matter is it an offence for club officials to feel that way. The AFL had, on several occasions, already stated its position on what was ultimately permissible and what was not. The fact that we had players who were outwardly urging their teammates on to win a match and that, in the end, we would have won had Jordan McMahon missed from 50 metres after the siren is the proof that there is no case to answer.

Michael Young.

I would suggest that the follow up to Wilson's screeching editorial of a fortnight ago has been a major embarrassment to herself and her newspaper. I'm afraid that if Caro wants to win a Walkley Award for journalism now, then she has to volunteer to go to Gaza and embed herself with whoever happens to be the latest leader of the Hamas military wing and ask some tough questions whilst on a casual drive through town.

And ... there's this phantom draft issued yesterday by the Footy Tragic site - Footy Tragic 2012 Phantom Draft This has GWS going for Whitfield, Menzel and Plowman but I'm staggered that they would be overlooking Grundy.In any event, it doesn't matter as I will be over the moon if they leave Jimmy to us. I think he is close to par with Whitfield but seems to have a bit more maturity and the added advantage of having already played with and against men in the SANFL competition (including the 2011 premiership with Woodville-West Torrens). That should do us very nicely thank you. ... and in one fell swoop it will, for once and for all, overcome this:http://youtu.be/oFGGD_d9GnQ

I must say that I had just about given up on the prospect of Melbourne having any chance of getting Jimmy Toumpas but that's changed a little in the last 24 hours. I heard yesterday from a former player (not MFC) who still has some interest (and contacts) in the AFL that GWS was looking at a varied selection of players with 1-2-3 and now this from Emma Quayle who has her ears close to the ground on draft matters:- Emma Quayle's club-by-club guide to the 2012 national draft If this is true then Melbourne would need to think long and hard before overlooking someone of Toumpas' class in favour of Oliver Wines.

No Graeme. In fact he was quite aloof and preferred the company of the older boys in sixth form like your good self.

This has to be the best time of year for Demon fans. We're upbeat because the players look good on the track and many are training the proverbial house down. It's well and good to say that they appear to be training harder and looking better but it's a pity that you can't measure what we're doing as against other clubs. Just watching our performances deteriorate earlier this year after beating Collingwood in the NAB Cup has made me a little bit of a sceptic as far as the favourable early pre season stuff is concerned. Is there anyone out there who can convince me otherwise?

He has a little bit to say about Oliver Wines - Oliver Wines DOB: 1/10/94 Ht: 188 Wt: 90 Wines is an inside mid who has shown really good development over the last couple of years improving in all areas of his game to the extent that he must now be considered with the elites of this draft. I would probably put him behind only Viney of the inside players available this year. Wines is a big lad for his age and is more physically developed than many of the guys he played with and against. He has a good set of shoulders on him and is a stocky build although room to develop in his lower half. Don’t be deceived by the build however, he has very good endurance and has gone over 15 in the beep before. He spreads from contests very well and this is an area where he has improved a lot over the last year or so. At the Champs he showed a great ability to work hard forward into dangerous spots. It’s great to have the endurance but unlike some that come through Wines also has the footy smarts to know how to use it. This as much as his inside ability is one of the reasons I have him so high. Wines has made a name for himself as an inside mid. I think he should do very well at that at AFL level but he is by no means assured of success. He is not the cleanest inside player you will see and is prone to fumbling a little (not all the time but enough to notice it). With less time to react at AFL level this could cause him problems and reduce his effectiveness. One of other main strengths at the moment is also something which could go either way at the next level. As a junior, Wines has shown great ability to absorb contact inside, not panic, retain his feet and balance, keep his arms free and get the ball out. At AFL level where guys are quicker, stronger and with better technique will he be able to do the same? The innate ability to keep his composure could really help him under the increased pressure at the next level but on the other side of the coin if he hangs onto it too long he will be punished more often. I think his hands inside are quick but not elite. He has shown good ability to evaluate the situation and then execute and I expect this to hold him in good stead at the next level. He often starts outside of packs and works inside but he is not one to hit the pack at pace and come out the other side. He works in and holds with strength. He regularly gets first hands to the ball and can often be seen on his hands and knees at the bottom of a pack. On knees he has shown good ability to still be able to clear the ball. As with a lot of young inside mids his kicking does need a bit of work but he will be working from a higher base than Watson say or Smith last year. He is not a particularly long kick and is a little inconsistent with his weighting. His set shot for goal is solid but not anything more than that and whilst he can get it from 50 that is the absolute limit of his range at the moment. His kicking is not a liability but neither is it a strength and it is something which he will need to work on further. Pace wise he is mostly pretty average but he does have a nice 10m burst that he uses effectively which I see as a function of his endurance rather than necessarily quickness. He might not have a particularly high top end but he can get there quickly. Overall Wines is a pretty average athlete across the board and he tested that way at combine (except in endurance where he tested very well as expected). Another area where Wines has improved is with his marking. For an inside mid I think he is a good mark of the ball having reasonable hands above his head and being a very good judge of the ball in the air. Wines is one of the better tacklers, technique wise this year. Unlike many he wraps but also uses his shoulder to drive the man. In tight he will get his fair share of tackles throughout his career. Overall he looks like a pretty good inside prospect.