old55

Indeed and Mother Theresa was essentially self-serving too. Reductionist arguments have their limitations.

There's tens: Pink Lady Day, players visiting sick kids in hospital, assisting player welfare after football ...

Bob is correct, the club exists to fulfill its members' varied aims. This member's aim in to win flags and if we couldn't win one I wouldn't follow the club. But I recognise others have different and legitimate aims. Maybe it's a pity that most of us are unable to change our allegiance based on which club might best fulfill our aims.

60% of 22 is 13. I think Hawthorn had 10 in last year's flag side (incl Croad) http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl...4-19742,00.html I think we currently have 14 12 on the list (some won't make it) and hopefully 2 more to come this year: Jones, Watts, McLean, Bate, Frawley, Morton, Sylvia, Dunn, Grimes, Bell, Moloney (first round trade), Meesen (originally 1st rounder), Blease, Strauss. Made a correction - Blease & Strauss not 1st rounders Also maybe not fair to count both Moloney and Meesen

Strong candidate for worst OP ever - and against some super competition too.

So you'd rather see Carlton out of the 2009 finals than Tom Scully in a Melbourne jumper for 12 years. Your argument does not persuade me at all. I am much less motivated by causing another team's failure than by enhancing our team's long term success.

Yep we can all feel good about holding up the integrity of the competition while Worsfold and Glass are holding up the 2013 premiership cup.

I'm sticking fat with McLean. The ONLY reason he wont make it is because of injury.

I haven't written Juice off. Has been showing something for a considerable time now - good defensive efforts, his number one trick markling and he actually is a good kick. IMO the biggest thing he lacks is self-confidence, when he gets some self belief (like that patch in the 3rd) and makes the play he is a decent prospect. Jamar and Warnock would not be on our list if they were finally judged at Juice's age - big men can take time. I'm glad he's got another year with us - he has the attributes to fill the tall forward role we're lacking. I'm not confident he'll make it but there's some chance that's worth persevering with

I don't just want a better list than we have, I want to have the best list in the AFL. We haven't had that for 45 years. I don't want to win games and play finals, I want to win the flag. We haven't done that for 45 years. Three more tough weeks, that's it.

It's intriguing. WC are tanking for sure and accidently beat Hawthorn a few weeks back. But the dual incentive Freo have to lose - first WA pick (or Scully if we win 5) and to tip WC out of the PP may just be overwhelming. Then if as probable the picks went "MFC, Freo, MFC" it's possible WC could miss out on both WA preferences depending who we like. I was tipping Freo but now I'm not sure - may be the first nil-all derby.

Yes it is about Scully because if we finish 14th with 5 wins we'll get one player with high skill and potential, if we finish 15th with 4 wins we'll get one player with high skill and potential and Scully. It may also mean the the difference between pick 5 and pick 3 but that's splitting hairs, the difference is NO Scully.

No-one has said Scully = certain premiership and you do your argument a disservice by making this incorrect claim. I have said that no Scully = no premiership because we are severely disadvantaged and need to take every chance we have. There's a big difference between these predictions. We've got almost no chance of winning a flag, if we take every advantage and opportunity offered to us we may just pull off a miracle.

Added that one in - are there any others - I couldn't see any pre-97 but I may be missing something.

Good point - added that data

1st round PPs (added next pick on 45HGs good advice) (added TJ in 97 on Jarka's good advice) team / Priority Tally ============== Hawthorn 3 = Ellis, Roughead, Hodge Carlton 3 = Kruezer, Walker, Murphy Western Bulldogs 2 = Cooney, Griffen St Kilda 2 = Riewoldt, Ball Collingwood 2 = Thomas, Fraser Melbourne 2 = Sylvia, Johnstone (converted to Grimes) West Coast 1 = Judd (converted to Masten, Kennedy, Notte) Richmond 1 = Deledio Fremantle 1 = Haselby Pick # / Player (next pick) / Draft / Team ===================== 1 Matthew Kreuzer (next pick traded for Judd) 2007 Carlton 3 Xavier Ellis (next pick Dowler) 2005 Hawthorn 2 Dale Thomas (Pendlebury) 2005 Collingwood 1 Marc Murphy (Kennedy traded for Judd) 2005 Carlton 3 Ryan Griffen (Williams) 2004 Western Bulldogs 1 Brett Deledio (Tambling) 2004 Richmond 2 Jarryd Roughead (Franklin) 2004 Hawthorn 1 Adam Cooney (Ray) 2003 Western Bulldogs 3 Colin Sylvia (McLean) 2003 Melbourne 2 Andrew Walker (next pick lost thru salary Cap penalty) 2003 Carlton 3 Chris Judd (Sampi) [Judd converted to Masten, Kennedy and Notte in trade to Carlton] 2001 West Coast 2 Luke Ball (X.Clarke) 2001 St Kilda 1 Luke Hodge (Freo traded the pick for Croad, then picked Polak) 2001 Hawthorn 1 Nick Riewoldt (Kosi) 2000 St kilda 2 Paul Hasleby (Pavlich) 1999 Fremantle 1 Josh Fraser (Danny Roach (pick 7) - swapped pick 3 (Fiora) with Richmond - neither took Pav) 1999 Collingwood 1 Travis Johnstone (next pick traded to Freo for Jeff White, Freo on traded to Richmond who picked Ottens) [TJ converted into Grimes in trade with Brisbane] 1997 Melbourne

I wonder if there's any correlation between supporters: - who want to win very game for the remainder of this year - who are willing to tolerate more losses this year for #1 pick and - who like to kick long down the line to a contest - who like a backwards switch

Fine - let's hope we don't have to find out I am right.

It's a good analogy HT but I'd put it this way - we've got less resources than other clubs and a worse draw. The only advantage we've got, and it's fleeting, is the ability to get better personnel in. Currently we're starting 0-30 down every game. A better list will enable us to start 0-0 at least. If we don't get better players in than other clubs then we'll never win a flag. "Scully" wont guarantee us a flag, but not getting him will guarantee that we wont win one. And it's only going to get harder for us with new teams with draft concessions and free agency. This is the last fuel stop for 20 years.

Jurrah's an exciting talent with a great leap, pace and specially a very good kick. He's made an impact. Now opposition teams will put some work into him and come up with tactics to combat him. He seems to play from behind a bit and they'll focus on this. So he'll have a new challenge to overcome - but he looks like he's got the tools to work with.

You're jumping the gun, we've had 2 morale boosting wins when we were at a low ebb. It's not a problem until we've won 5 and we can still manage to win only 4. I can guarantee that we'll look back with joy if we've got Scully and despair if we haven't.

Best wishes to Jim and family.

I think you are correct.

I may have been projecting but I didn't see Worsfold smiling when they cut to the coaching box - I thought he was grimacing and thinking this is not going according to my script.

I don't think it's a big difference either, what I'm talking about is stitching up pick 1. If we win this week there's some possibility that we'll win 3 more and WC will lose every game. I want that out of the equation.