Lord Nev

You've been quite kind to Jeff in what you've quoted too, thought this particular exchange was appalling from a club president: Neil Mitchell: What, you mean they appear to be of ethnic background? Mr Kennett: Well, they’re new arrivals to Australia, it appears. Neil Mitchell: We don’t know that.

Haha ok then champ, thanks for your life story, have a great week.

Michael Gleeson, whom I respect greatly as a footy journo, put it really well in this section of his article this evening: "Fans are thus now better prepared to accept the word of the thrown-out loudmouth when they protest (very quickly on social media replete with videos of the incident and just as quickly on talkback radio) that they did nothing, than they are to accept the assurances of the officials that the person deserved to be thrown out. The loud and ejected have been allowed to be turned into the victims because the AFL has allowed itself to be cast as the aloof bureaucracy trying to take the game away from the people. If you are going to do it, be honest and tell people why. People want to be condescended to by officials about as much as they want to sit near an offensive supporter behaving badly." 4 Points: How the AFL alienated its fans

I reckon we would agree on a lot mate, and I love that you're still up and about for this season even if it's maybe more motivated by rage (which I can relate to). Let's just both hope that the steps being taken behind the scenes now will end up being effective for us and we can use the rest of this year to launch into a successful 2020, even if you and I disagree a bit on the launch process. Cheers!

Mate, I love your passion, but I'm not sure how many more ways I can explain it. Of course there's reasons for coming into a season underprepared. Our surgery and fitness report clearly explained that. It's not an excuse, it's the reality of our preparation. It's not about putting the cue in the rack. Putting the cue in the rack would be continuing to do the same thing for the rest of the season. 'Toughen up' is out of touch talk. Is that how you'd handle injuries? Just tell them to 'toughen up'? Again, it's just simply not reality. I guess we have different priorities. I won't us to be best prepared for a shot at a flag, you seem to want 22 unfit tough guys with a terrible game plan running out there every week like it's some kind of catharsis rather than a complicated game with many different facets that effect success.

Sure, but the reality is we came into this season underprepared due to running the players down, which was worth it to make a prelim, but not worth it to possibly finish 10th instead of 12th, which could be the case this year. Reality is we have players who are nowhere near 100% fitness and we are far better off getting them physically right for a year that matters than setting ourselves back again for next year. Reality is we have massive game plan and structure issues that we can start working on during proper games and try to get it fine tuned by preseason, or we can just keep doing the same old (which is costing us games btw) and then try to teach the players something new in the short time span of one preseason. Let's deal in reality and not cliches.

I don't think I made my point clear enough mate. I was having a crack at the players and coaches by saying it looks like they already pulled the pin. Either way, I've tried to explain that my suggestion isn't 'pulling the pin', it's putting a value on an effective preseason rather than destroying another preseason by riding players into the ground and not adjusting/innovating our game plan(s) and structures.

Yep agreed, and that's what i think is important about the Nicholls case. If that supporter was yelling it out from the crowd after a poor decision it's pretty standard stuff, but hanging over the race screaming it in his face as he's walking out is not ok IMO.

To be fair though, ANB has had at least 2 games cut short with injury, not that that would make a difference of 14 marks of course.

Apologies for potentially throwing a bit of a grenade into the thread, but given we're also currently 'critiquing' the game plan, structures, assistant coaches, lack of a cohesive base, fitness boss, CEO and head coach, doesn't that put a bit of a disclaimer on making definitive calls on our recent recruiting in the context of everything else that is inarguably wrong or, at best, questionable?

The pin was pulled a few rounds in judging by onfield performance. This isn't about conceding the season, it is about doing what is best for the future without sacrificing the ability to properly prepare for it. It's a shift in planning, not a shift in what the goal is, which is winning games and ultimately a premiership.

Absolutely, I'm 100% with you on that, I'm not into 'alternate scoreboards'. We should be building more of a structure that relies less on talent to be effective and then we'll get that balance you speak of right IMO. I believe we've got the competitive stuff and plenty of the 'hurt', but we are just a bit dumb and unskilled. We get such a small window in between seasons to work on things, let's just start it now and launch into 2020 at full speed.

I'm not talking about tanking, the ultimate goal of winning games remains otherwise you destroy any culture we've built, but playing fit players takes precedence over rushing in underdone or sore players, despite talent. Get TMac, Viney, Gus or anyone else that appears to be playing under duress off to the surgeon or into the 'off legs' program rather than riding them into the ground and impacting their preseason. Build up more of a portfolio of game plans and get the onfield leaders versed in reading the state of the game and implementing them. We seem to only have the 1 strategy, despite the momentum of the game. If we can get a focus on that, spend time in game working on it, it will hold us in good stead for the future I believe.

Be better not to now in my opinion. Similar to the Swans in 2017, I think we'd use up all our tickets getting there and it would end up a pointless endeavor. We'd then be starting behind again, just like last preseason, with worn down players needing surgery/rehab and we'd be staring down the barrel of an underprepared 2020. I personally think we should treat the rest of 2019 as a preseason for 2020. Get the surgeries done now, be extra conservative with rehab and fitness, workshop our game plan and structures, and make some hard decisions about senior players who may need to be dropped to work on weak areas of their games. All about 2020 now. Get a head start so we can have clear air going into preseason.

Source: https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tr-melbourne-demons?year=2019&rt=TT&st=MA

So your solution to your perceived over-policing of abuse is more abuse? Good luck with that.

Is that really what you want? People doing their jobs to be physically attacked? And then you wonder why they have these people there in the first place...

Those poor victim fans. Obviously security is not needed at all... "Video footage posted to social media showed Victoria Police getting between fans who were fighting each other after the siren, with one throwing a right hand over the top of an officer in an attempt to strike another man. An unknown fan then pours what appears to be beer on the police and the offending fans from the stand above." https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/carlton-and-western-bulldogs-fans-fight-each-other-as-police-intervene/news-story/66b8edd91361c37a0450dcf11cefcd6a?fbclid=IwAR323m6TuglcI11h-BYzUcq3j4GrE6y5LhIrAEYTDDP24hBGDnhjfIxAzjA

Have a look at the ones who are telling you they're picking on the 'harmless loud fool' though, it's generally the 'harmless loud fool' themselves. 'Bald headed [censored]' guy was hanging over the race screaming it (and by fans reports, various other things) directly at Nicholls as he was walking out. It wasn't a 'harmless loud' comment during the game after a decision he disagreed with when the umpire was hundreds of metres away on the ground, it was directly at him from close proximity and not during game time. The Carlton bloke who has played the victim has a bunch of social media posts from before his 15 minutes of fame where he is absolutely abusing people with foul language in a way that would threaten most families at a game. You honestly believe he was just innocently barracking when kicked out? Find it strange that for such a (generally) sceptical site, so many are getting sucked in by the media outrage agenda so easily.

Yeah, but I don't think playing success equals coaching success, even in terms of leadership. It's hard for us on the outside to know about coaching qualities so all we can go by is how they seem to be rated by the industry, and Goodwin was rated very highly. Obviously onfield performance comes into it as well, but that can be more of a complex equation than just judging one person. I think Goodwin has shown coaching "talent" in terms of innovation, demeanor and an ability to identify and implement his own style, but in classic Melbourne style he's the talent that isn't being developed properly. I believe if the club gets the right experienced support around him then he will develop into a very good senior coach. It's only his 3rd year after all.

My opinion is Goodwin got a bit ahead of himself in terms of what his capabilities and experience were and in turn how much support he would need. He's seemed to have taken all the control himself (along with the responsibility - just look at the whole near-faint saga) and thought he could fill his assistant roster with mostly fairly green coaches. It hasn't worked, and the one senior bloke he has around there doesn't seem to be a great connection with (if you go by reports). He's a microcosm of the team itself. Lots of talent, got ahead of himself, needs to accept that he requires better quality support and structure to succeed.

Totally hear that, and I think if we had just coasted along things might have stayed stagnant and comfortable, but the shock we've copped should (hopefully) stir more action than a middle of the road year would have. Funny you mention the whole thing about cliche statements too, was listening to some talk about the '89 Grand Final this week and in particular Jeans' halftime message about "pay the price", and I thought gee that has a whole different feel to it than "esprit de corps" (so very Melbourne).

The more impactful changes that come after a year like the one we're having. If we had just cruised along, finished somewhere 5-8 then got bundled out without winning a flag the kind of changes we made might not have been big enough to push us to another level. Now, because of the horror we're currently enduring, serious questions will be asked, serious changes will be made, and it just gives us a bit of unpredictability for 2020 (along with a better set of picks and a cushy draw). Even despite my ingrained Demon depression and distrust, my gut still says this year is an aberration.

AFL fans in May: 'The violence is out of control, why isn't the AFL doing anything?!' AFL fans in June: 'The security is out of control, why is the AFL doing so much?!'

Yeah maybe after 1 game, possibly 2, you could say that, but I reckon after one and a half seasons of doing it you could say he's going against instructions given it appears he's made no change to his approach. I could forgive him based on being a poor kick if he was making the right decisions but not executing, but he's making the wrong decision 9 times out of 10 in my opinion. It's not our only problem, but I guess I just place a lot of importance on it being it's a co-captain.