Lord Nev

They've also sped up their team even more and now have 9 out of 11 games on the quick track at Marvel to start the season, and 15 games there for the year.

Viney was going at about half the AFL average mate, there's no way to spin it, his disposal forward has been terrible.

What?

Mate, seriously. From the article I linked for you, then quoted for you: "And while James Harmes (59 per cent retention), Tom McDonald (57), and Christian Petracca (48) have been sharper than most kicking the ball to forward targets, it’s been more problematic when hard nuts Angus Brayshaw (33) Clayton Oliver (30) and Viney (24) have been in possession." And we're talking about kicking inside 50, so you're point "Harmes, Petracca and Melksham received from Viney, Oliver and Brayshaw" doesn't make any sense. We're judging the delivery inside 50. I'm not sure what makes you think that in the second half of the year, where we won less games than the first, we suddenly drastically improved our inside 50 kicking. Not sure how many more facts and sources I can provide before you get it, or if you're just being deliberately obtuse now.

100% the forwards play a part in that, although interestingly players like Harmes, Petracca and Melksham did really well in the kick retention stat delivering it to the same forwards as Viney, Oliver and Brayshaw. I'm with you in backing Viney for a much better year this year, and going off the presentation Mahoney gave at the end of last year I'm expecting a fair bit of improvement both in the delivery forward and the finishing in front of goals.

Not sure it makes a massive difference tbh, but given the use of the word "retained" as opposed to "marked" then I assume it doesn't mean they have to cleanly mark it.

The kick retention stat is retaining possession from a kick inside 50m. So it measures if a kick inside 50 is going to one of our own players or not.

You're welcome to post some sources that counter my argument that Viney is poor at delivering the ball inside 50. And just to clarify, delivery inside 50 isn't goal accuracy, nor is it disposal efficiency (which has already been pointed out numerous times as a useless stat anyway).

Provided you with numerous sources after you asked, then you still try to find ways to doubt it.

Absolutely, but it's a thread about Viney so the main focus has been on him. As mentioned in other posts, Clarry and Gus were both also terrible at delivery forward. I love Jack. He's the type of player that makes you proud that he plays for your club, but that doesn't mean everything about his game is beyond reproach. Bleeding red and blue doesn't mean you escape reasonable criticism for weaknesses in your game that can hurt the team.

Now you're getting a bit silly.

Just adding another source, with a snippet from the article: Teams have enjoyed huge success scoring on the counter-attack against Melbourne this year, and Collingwood’s Jeremy Howe and Darcy Moore will attempt to pick off any misdirected delivery in the Queen’s Birthday blockbuster today at the MCG. Whereas Geelong has jumped the competition with their lethal forward craft, the Demons are ranked third-last for retaining possession from a kick inside 50m at 41 per cent, well down on the AFL average (46 per cent). It’s arguably a by-product of the way the Demons have wanted to play under Simon Goodwin, and that tough, fearless, first-in brand of footy. They only lost the contested ball count in two games last season. But some finesse has been lost as they sit 3-8 midway through a season which, initially, promised so much. And while James Harmes (59 per cent retention), Tom McDonald (57), and Christian Petracca (48) have been sharper than most kicking the ball to forward targets, it’s been more problematic when hard nuts Angus Brayshaw (33) Clayton Oliver (30) and Viney (24) have been in possession. Melbourne needs to improve its ball use or find more class to take the next step, writes Jay Clark

Have just edited the post to add sources for stats. They didn't have the whole team as it was a specific article about Melbourne's woeful delivery inside 50. Clarry and Gus were also well below average for kick retention though.

You seem to be confusing delivery inside 50 with goal kicking accuracy, so not 100% what you're on about there with kicking points etc? Also, disposal efficiency is a useless stat. It's parameters are very poor and in some circumstances you can be awarded an "effective disposal" even though the opposition ends up with the ball. And that's without even mentioning the fact it doesn't take context of disposal into account. As for Supercoach scores... You're not seriously suggesting that is a relevant stat? As a midfielder who wins the ball and kicks it inside 50, of course it is "his go" to be up to scratch in that area. If you want to talk stats, let's talk about Champion Data's stat of kick retention inside 50. This stat has far better parameters than disposal efficiency and measures how many times a kick inside 50 is retained by the same team, taking into account the difficulty of said kick: In 2019, Viney went at 21.2% kick retention, which was the worst in the league. Source He was also rated as 508th for kicking... 508th. Source

I never said Viney was the cause of 19 intercept marks. Not my fault if you (possibly on purpose) misinterpret things. Also, I've already explained how turnovers and disposal efficiency are flawed stats. I've admitted and owned up to getting the Viney kicks inside 50 wrong, but if you honestly believe he and the rest of the players have been delivering it inside 50 at AFL standard then you have an opposite view to every single credible footy analyst, commentator and media person who has taken a look at us. We're talking about Viney. If Wagner and Hore played for the opposition then sure, their stats would be relevant, but they are simply not. Talk about posting "bullsh1te". Edit - Adding for context: "It was typical Melbourne. They wasted opportunities and had poor inside 50 entries - they finished with 62 to West Coast’s 47 and had four more scoring shots for the match, but lost by 16 points." "It took deep entries for the Demons to lead at all three breaks. At halftime, for example, all five of Melbourne’s goals were kicked essentially from the goal square, or 10 metres out from there but directly in front." https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/live-afl-round-9-west-coast-eagles-v-melbourne/news-story/04cb0c5b0514136e607cee76c6aeeef6

Turnovers and disposal efficiency are flawed stats. You can technically turn it over but it be an "effective disposal" in certain circumstances. Not sure what Wagner and Hore have to do with our kicking inside 50, but good for them. Viney last year was rated as the worst player in the league for kick retention inside 50 (recorded by Champion Data), but sure lets all just take cracks at someone who made an error online bEcaUse He BleEdS rEd AnD bLuE.

Thanks for another quality contribution to talking footy here.

Which is why I added that I remembered incorrectly. Didn't think it was that hard to understand.

No I love Viney. Hate his kicking inside 50, but love him otherwise. Interesting you talk about bias and inventing things...

Which is what I said.

The Perth one I'm pretty sure. Edit - Just looked up to make sure, and Hurn and McGovern had a total of 25 marks in that game (including 19 intercepts). Geez. BUT I might have remembered incorrectly about the total of marks from Viney kicks directly.

When we played West Coast last year Hurn and McGovern combined for double figures in marks purely from Viney kicks. But sure, he 'bleeds red and blue' so let's not talk about it. Adding an edit because there seems to be an echo in here - It wouldn't have been double figures as Viney only had 9 kicks for the game. Hurn and McGovern took 19 intercept marks in that game however.

Problem is, in 2019: MFC ranked 5th for inside 50s, yet.... Ranked 17th for points scored. Ranked 17th for opponent rebound 50s. Ranked 4th for turnovers. Jeff Garlett lead our marks inside 50. Rebounding footy has never been more prevalent than it is now, so it's not just about territory anymore, it's about efficiency.

Viney's kicking is a liability. Rated as worst in the league for retention inside 50. He's a finals-built type player though, so if he can get his forward delivery up to average then the whole thing changes.