Vogon Poetry

Yes, that's right. It's like saying in the Frost deal we ended up with ANB and Oscar. I really don't consider that part of the "real" deal. Picks past 40 are just steak knives really and don't form a key part of the deal. But I take your point. As I said I think we were big winners. One of the benefits of Tyson is that he was a known quantity compared to any draft pick. For a struggling club that degree of certainty was very valuable (together with the years of development he'd already had).

My understanding/recollection is we weren't all that keen on Kelly and I remember Roos saying Bont was a speculative pick at 4. I think we would have taken Scharenberg at 2 and if he had repeated his injury history it would have been a disaster. Not that Salem has been a lot better but if he's overcome his thyroid issue he probably sits better than Scharenberg. I doubt we would have picked up Cripps because we'd have picked him up at 9 if we thought he was better than Salem. There was talk of Lewis Taylor wasn't there so we might have ended up with Scharenberg and Taylor or Salem (at 2) and Taylor. All in all I'm very happy with where we are as I think Stretch will offer a lot of what Kelly does. Kelly is really an Isaac Smith isn't he? Dom is a terrific player anyway, had a year or two under his belt and Salem is as much an unknown as Kelly in some ways. Would I go back (even including pick 20 in the deal. No, unless I knew we'd pick the Bont and Zac Merritt! But I don't think we would have so I'll sit were we are. All in all it was a win win. It's a little like the debate on Oliver v Parish. I'm happy where we are but Parish will be a very good player and clearly had a better first year than Oliver. Oliver just did things. His clearance work, out marking Ward in his first game, getting up and dominating the second quarter after being flattened against Hawks and that one handed pick up against the Hawks in the last quarter were indications that Oliver could be elite. Please god, give him a tank of an acceptable level and I'll be a very happy man.

But the deal was more complicated than that because it involved us losing pick 20 (from memory). Having said that I think two very good players are more valuable than a great player. I'm surprised that so many prefer Kelly to Fyfe. Fyfe is a champion, Brownlow medalist and can play on ball and forward and probably anywhere else, is a dangerous mark and contested ball winning beast who finds it all the time. Kelly has done little yet. He's another Scully IMO who is a slightly better kick. Kelly may be very good, but Fyfe is great.

I went down on the off chance they would train. JKH and Jets with Crossy and and a few others having a work out. JKH doing leading and kicking work and Jets running. Crossy the standout, looks like he could play tomorrow.

I smell a troll. If anything, I think I underrate him and I think he's special.

I largely agree with you, I remember getting excited when I saw James Strauss train the house down one day! I think what you can do is see if players are doing things in training that they haven't done in training before. I'm a bit of a Pencil fan, reckon he gets a bum rap from some. His kicking is now pretty good, I'd rather him having a shot for goal than Max. Pencil's ball drop is very close to his foot which makes it look awkward but quite reliable. He's also ok kicking around the ground where he has time but, like Max, hold on to your hat if he's under pressure. I think what Pencil was doing on Monday was moving much better and making himself a target which he's not done much in the past. But what caught the eye was the clean high marks he was taking but they were admittedly against much shorter opponents. Nevertheless they were clean and contested. He's always been quick for a big bloke and he's now much stronger than he was. If Max goes down everyone thinks we go down with him. I don't agree. Pencil will be competitive, he just won't be in the top category of rucks. But the point that is often made is we are now seeing with all players the benefit of proper development. Pencil has been at MFC under Bailey and Neeld before Roos arrived. But frankly I think the major influence is McCartney, wherever he goes young players flourish. And our list was just about a green field site when he arrived which means there was a lot of improvement in the older players as well. The observation that all players are improving is most likely correct.

I also look for who is in rehab as we know that despite the "golden ticket" knock preseasons are critical to the year. It's really encouraging that most have had good preseason, particularly the young blokes like Stretch, Petracca, Brayshaw, Hunt, Weideman, Harmes, AVB, Oliver and Hogan. I think it's critical that the good young players get preseasons. Older players can get away with missing a bit but for younger players it's so important. This, to me, is why Saty's information is so good.

Dazzle I've been a track watcher for many years now and I've learned it's very difficult to judge how a lot of things on the track translate to game situations. For example slick ball movement at training turns into preseason rust in games. I put Trengove's pace in this category. I think if you went and looked at last years training threads you'd see similar comments from many regarding the "return" of Trengove's pace. My position is that I can see no difference to other years and until I do I'll remain sceptical. In the 10 v 10 drills we are doing at present it's very easy to find space and have time to dispose although yesterdays session was more contested. Nobody is caught out for pace in these drills to date. My view is pretty simple and again differs from Saty. Trengove is all class. If he has the pace he had when he first came he'd be one of the first picked each week, he wouldn't be in the pack chasing the last few spots in the best 22. If he doesn't have that pace he'll struggle to sustain an AFL career IMO. Those that compare him to greats such as Bartel, Lewis and Mitchell (to name a few) are underrating those players pace IMO. In the last few seasons Trengove hasn't been just slow, he's been painfully slow, slower than Brock McLean who couldn't chase down any of the three players I've mentioned. I freely admit we won't know until firstly the practice matches start and more probably the season proper. But training is like dancing with your sister and can be quite misleading. Spencer looked fantastic yesterday but few think that will translate into a best 22 position. Jack has looked good this preseason and we all hope it will translate into the season but I doubt it will. It's just a view.

Saty if he is what he was before injury are you suggesting we are now that strong that we don't need him unless injury gives him a chance? Pre injury he was going to be an elite mid.

Just for the record I have a different view but only time will tell. We've been down this road before.

With 10 v 10 all players cover most of the ground but I didn't notice anyone in an "abnormal" position. Pretty much business as normal as far as I could see.

Something happened on the other side of the ground first up and he was winded or hurt his ribs. He was then involved is a strong contested situation in front of me where he and (I think) Dion Johnstone collided in a pack of four and both were down for some time. Rib area again I think. Unfortunately can't add more than that.

Got to training about 10.50 to find the rehab group working hard with run throughs. New addition was Jetta who looked anything but happy. Tyson and Kent looked good to me, particularly Tyson who had no bandages on either knee and was moving freely. Lateral movement wasn't an issue so I'd say he is well on the way to a full recovery. Disappointing to see ANB still in there but he was running well. Didn't see Brayshaw or JKH. Hope JKH is ok, would hate him to lose more time from the preseason. Liam Hulett was running quite well so that was good news after what appeared a nasty injury last week. Main group didn't arrive until about 11.30 and did the usual warm up drills - run throughs, short kicking, stretching and a bit of agility work. Then the main part of the session (until I had to leave for parking issues) was the 10 v 10 WW has referred to. Seemed a step up to me as there was much more contested stuff and poor old Declan Keilty copped a couple of nasty one and was running laps when I left. Stand out for me were Jake Spencer who was in everything and Billy Stretch. He's a lock for R1 the way he's going. Poised and clean, quick and a good decision maker and disposer of the ball. He's a favourite so I might be overstating it! Oliver was struggling for the whole session but I think it was just the hot weather and hay fever as he came off for his puffer and then returned and did some 10 on 10 work. Others to stand out for me were Garlett, Jones, AVB, Lewis and Watts. Joel Smith was also good and looked comfortable. Hunt is looking stronger and more assured and took a very good contested mark at one stage. Looks to have stepped up from last year which will strike fear into the hearts of the opposition. Looked like a significant ramp up in intensity and contact stuff today and as a result there were more turnovers than other sessions I've seen. Also of interest was that during the 60m run throughs the only players that I noticed bouncing and carrying a ball were Hunt and Frost. Hunt was bouncing it as he went while Frost not so much. There was a continued emphasis on non preferred kicking at one point in the early drills. The other thing that struck me was the use of Spencer and Gawn as targets when going forward. The way Jake trained today I'd be surprised if he didn't get a go in the ruck in the practices matches with Max to see how we go with two recognized rucks. It's never been something that's appealed but if Jake can genuinely step up it could work. Any questions ask. I left well before the end I'd imagine so others will have more to add.

I think Howe is very underrated here and I think Collingwood will be better than many think. They have an excellent midfield and will get Elliott back. Mayne will play Cloke's role and Moore is a very good young player. Time will tell. Howe will not be missed by us because we have Hibberd and I think Joel Smith is very similar. Howe was far from lazy when he went back which seems to be the main knock here. Kennedy has had plenty of chances and is fighting for a spot along with the group Saty has mentioned. I think he's well back but if he plays he'll be playing well because he will have beaten some good players for spots.

I have no objection to others discussing any player as much as they want as long as it's respectful.

No thanks, I'll discuss what I want and do it when I want. I'll continue to ask and be interested in others view of Trengove's speed. It's a subject I'm interested in. Unless of course Demonland decides it's a topic not worth discussion.

Are we allowed to discuss any player weaknesses? Trengove is a much admired person here and everywhere. Most would think that his (lack of) speed is the one thing holding him back. Should we stop people who have been to training from commenting on it because it's "bleating". You think he's fast enough and others don't. Let them have their say. For the record, he wouldn't be doing the special work on his speed if it wasn't an issue. It's a moot point Saty, time will tell but we are discussing it. Nobody is wishing him ill.

I think it will be one of the more interesting things this year. Will we play players purely on form or will we develop. Last year there was a clear emphasis on development and getting games into players we thought would play in our "best" future team. I don't think that will happen this year as much. The only two I see getting games ahead of schedule are Weideman and J Smith.

I remember being critical of both Wagner and Hunt's selection last year because I didn't think either had done much in the VFL to justify selection. I was wrong on both counts. But I'm not sure the selections were "safe". Grimes would have been the safe (and wrong) selection. I would have make it.

Woops!

Peter Jackson............................

Which Smith?

waynewussell, training the house down! Great stuff WW, love your work.

He's done enough to justify his place on the list to Jason Taylor and that will do me for all this years recruits. I'm just of the view that you can't judge much from PST and that it is what happens in games that counts. Pro has given a summary of his attributes and these are what I've seen said about him rather than what I've seen. Oh, and just because he hasn't caught my eye doesn't mean he hasn't done good things. If you've attended training sessions there is a lot going on and it's easy to miss things. I haven't noticed Jack Viney yet but I'm not writing his season off as a result!

I've been impressed by Johnstone. I watched him in the rehab group before Christmas and he was having shots at goal and had no trouble from 50 metres. He's not looked out of place in any of the drills I've seen but neither has he ever "caught my eye". I don't really think we'll know where he fits until we see him in match situations. I've been a track watcher for some time now and I think judging players by there track work is fraught with danger. James Strauss and Sam Blease did some of the best work I've seen but only behind Jamie Bennell. Enough said. But unlike the past we have a recruiter who really hasn't put a foot wrong since his arrival. Jason Taylor and his team have done what few before have and that's nail the early picks. But more he's picked up some good players late. Oscar (who I rate more highly than most), Jayden Hunt, AVB and the like show he's able to spot talent. There isn't a player on the list now that I think doesn't deserve his spot. That's a long way of saying I like the boy and hold hopes but it's really too early to judge. Does that help?!