stevethemanjordan

Not very. Delist at end of season.

^ You're totally right. I have no idea where Freo would be without Ethan Hughes.

But why would I have a bias against a player playing for the team I love? I don't understand what you're saying there. You think that I like looking for when and where Oscar will make a mistake? No, I watch the game in hope players make the right decision in scenarios more than they make the wrong one. It's as simple as that. I don't think Oscar has shown any strengths so far at AFL level, I'm sure he has strengths at lower levels. I mean clearly he does and has because as you say, he was drafted onto a list and the FD elected not to bring in a key defender last year in the hope Frost and Oscar would be able to hold down the fort this year. Isn't it obvious that it hasn't happened? Why the talk of going after a key defender now? Why does Gary Lyon suggest we should? How and why did he come to that opinion? Over the years, I've always been happy to voice my opinions of players who I thought weren't up to it. Whether it was Bate, McKenzie, Bail or Morton. Joeboy I think points to a very obvious trend on demonland. Posters overeating players. Tyson is overrated on demonland by quite a few. Many gave him great praise for his 2014 year but those same posters don't like hearing when he is playing but his contribution is questionable. Or that there's an aspect of his game that may be questionable.

In other news, how the fark are we such short odds against the Suns this weekend? I don't understand.

It's cool that you don't acknowledge those of us who are in between. Those who can both congratulate a player for their obvious growth and improvement over time, and also have the capacity to critique those who under-perform or do not show enough growth over time.

^ I'm pretty sure I just read on the website that Max is 4-6 weeks away and that was directly from Misson. Sometimes I wonder if there is any point in having these injury reports. Maybe they should just call them short, medium and long term injuries like other clubs do.

It's called having credits. Jones has played at an unbelievably high level in most facets of the game for a very very long time. So of course people are going to cut him some slack for some uncharacteristic-turnovers. All the 'whipping boy' talk is brought up by posters like you who cannot handle any sort of criticism of a player who consistently underperforms in certain areas of their game. Why do you believe Jones isn't ever a 'whipping boy' on this forum? Does anyone think about that? (Aside from his leadership from time-to-time). Tyson showed more involved on the weekend. That's a positive. But his ball use when in space was again not at a high enough level. He doesn't punish the opposition. That is a negative.

Yeh, I challenged posters to give me a strong attribute that Oscar possesses. And I got two stats. One which I already rebutted because of how misleading it is and the other I didn't even bother with because of how nonsensical it was. A poster measuring Oscar's endurance against other players, based on the minutes he plays on ground ?! Even though he is a key defender. That is not a thing. It's a nonsensical correlation. I maintain that at this level, Oscar doesn't possess one strong and consistent attribute. Frost for example is really fast. That is his strong attribute. Hibberd is a strong user of the footy and strong intercept player. D'you see? Maybe we have a different idea of what difines a strong attribute, because it seems you're telling me what I meant by it. Strong attribute = strength. I'm happy to leave it there.

You're talking about a certain group of posters who are like that on this forum. Many of us knew that last week's game was a response win and the following game against North was going to be just as important, if not more so. If you were to go and look up what acts are included in the "one-percenter" stat, you will find that it's ridiculous and doesn't give a true indication of a player's worth. There are four actions that count toward a one-percenter: Knock-ons, spoils, smothers and shepherds. Now I can say right now that rarely have I seen Oscar smother the ball from someones kick or shepherd. Which leaves two actions left. Now if you go and look at what constitutes a 'spoil' in a marking contest as well as a 'knock-on', you will see how ridiculous these isolated stats are and what indeed is counted as both a spoil and a knock-on. A spoil that is recorded on a stats sheet is extremely limited in that it doesn't take into account things like who's advantage the ball is kicked to, whether or not the forward fumbled a mark, whether the defender fumbled a mark, how effective the spoil was etc etc. I'm talking about real, identifiable attributes. Not wildly inconsistent isolated stats that rarely take into account the wider context of the unfolding play. You might think all those other qualities that you've listed are his 'strong points'. I would say they are minimum requirements for a defender playing at this level. The top level. AFL. Maybe you're part of the soft Melbourne supporter group who are really easily pleased by bare minimums due to the fact that we've been below par for the last decade in nearly every facet of the club. It's not surprising that some supporters get excited by individual play that would otherwise be considered bare-minimum by any decent club's standard. This is not the amateurs. It's the elite. And if we want to compete in this environment, you simply can't be happy with bare-minimum.

It's all relevant. The reason we're talking about going after a player like Steven May is in part because of Oscar's incompetence as a key defender. d'you see?

Worth persisting with because of his age. But not at AFL level for at least two years.

Please go away with your pointless stats. Watch the game. Not the stats sheet.

I don't have a suggestion right at this point. I'm completely aware that we have no other real options at present and imo it's the FD who are at question. Clearly, and I mean clearly, they were hoping that Oscar would show a lot more than what he's showing this year and perhaps they thought the same about Frost. I was of the opinion last year that we needed a mature key-defender in our side so that Frost/Oscar could develop at VFL level. Even if it was a slightly older head like Brown or McKenzie who are not the future but would at least be able to compete against bigger forwards and provide some depth. I still maintain we'd be better off this year if we took one.. The only reason Oscar is still running around is because the next bloke in line is a rookie named Declan Keilty. But if it were up to me, I'd be willing to see how he goes. You can't do a lot worse than what you saw yesterday.

If you watch the replay, you will see that Oscar's reaction time to some of Brown's leads were abysmal. Like, seriously abysmal. There is no doubting that it's easy to be completely caught out of position as a defender if there is a turnover up the field, but any defender with decent reaction time and some sort of pace would have at the very least been able to effect a spoil on a few of Brown's leads when the defender and forward were at arms reach of each other. Alex Rance would have done more because he's Alex Rance. For everyone out there who constantly whines about individuals being labelled "whipping boys", there's a reason why you twits. Whilst Dazzle likes to go the extreme with name calling and expletives etc, I would rather just say that they're not at the required level. Someone name me one strong attribute that Oscar has to his game. Anyone. I'll give you $10 if you can. Of course we didn't lose the game because of one or two key defenders yesterday, but again, I'd love posters to watch the replay of Oscars game and let me know how you think he is going. We are crying out for Steven May. Or any half-decent key defender that doesn't make more than two or three catastrophic errors a game.

No, it definitely still matters. Hunt and Jones on each flank would be one too many average users.

I'm happy to throwdown absolutes if I believe them. And that's one that I'll bank it all on.

Irrelevant? Lever is far more advanced in many facets of the game and is also a much more versatile key defender due to his superior athletic abilities. That is extremely relevant given the way the game is now played. I'm not potting Oscar. But there is absolutely no question that Lever is and will be the better key defender.

Steven May. Surely.

True. However he plays well beyond his years. Which goes completely against those who like to think all young key defenders take time to develop. Some aspects of a key defender's game take time. But there are also players who have really strong fundamental skills that are shown almost from their first game and Lever being the high draft pick he was, possesses those traits/skills. Unlike Oscar for example who most on here hope/believe will become a great defender. But he doesn't possess the same strong fundamental skills that Lever does.

This. If he gives a quick handball to a marked player, (which he does too often) that counts toward this efficiency rating. Meanwhile, the player who recieves the ball is immediately under enormous pressure which reflects poorly on him if he can't dispose of the ball effectively. They are both mind-bogglingly stupid threads. That is one of many examples of how ridiculous isolated stats can be.

Would be a dream. A sweet sweet dream.

Agree. North's ludicrous offer has changed everything. Can't see any other club offering that amount. And for that reason surely it's a two-horse race for Kelly's signature.

I don't follow

Would love him, I reckon he'll be a top defender in time. Miles ahead of Oscar McDonald imo but would be very hard to get him. Reckon we need someone 25 years or older though.

I was making a point that St Kilda have more bargaining power, stat. Not necessarily on either of those two and as you've already pointed out, Martin is a free agent. You lumped the paragraph into one sentence. In general, St Kilda have picks that are more appealing to clubs that might be thinking about trading a great player with or without a contract. But certainly more appeal to clubs who'd be willing to part-ways with a contracted player given the right deal. I'm not trying to be right. I agree that an uncontracted player has more wiggle room due to the fact that he can leave a club with nothing by walking to the drafts. And as you've said they always get to their desired destination, eventually. Contracted players are now trending the same way.