stevethemanjordan

Oscar takes an intercept mark. Was thinking posters would be straight on to me about it. Alas. He misses a 15 meter target under no pressure yet again that nearly results in a shot on goal if not for Hibberd's calmness.

Lol. Today we have both Steven May and Oscar McDonald playing. I hope posters can now see that we need a player like May. Once again, I wonder what on earth anyone can see in Oscar McDonald.

You watching today's game? And you reckon asking for players with strong ball using ability is asking for Utopia? And no our greatest concern is not in inefficient conversion from good entries going inside 50. We have an innibility to use the ball efficiently from all areas of the ground. Whether from the backline, midfield, going inside 50 and even converting shots on goal as you said. The quality of our entries going inside 50 are actually incredibly underwhelming so I disagree with you on that.

We are the third or fourth worst ball-movement side in the AFL. Jones has many admirable attributes but ball use at this stage isn't one. There's no way in the world the club would give a first rounder for him. That's a Richmond-like move. I'm far more interested in players who will boost our ball use through the midfield. Run and carry is all well and good if it ends up in a scoring opportunity. I mean, Hunt's ability to break lines is great but he still butchers it or struggles to finish his work when he fails to kick to the advantage of our forwards. He is inconsistent with his finishing. And Jones is in that category. We need a serious injection of skill and class through our midfield imo and there are others we should be targeting for that reason.

Of course it reflects well on him! Apparently he is in our top three most important players... I still think the poster that thinks the fact that Oscar plays 92% game time must rank him in the top 30% for endurance takes the cake. I mean, they're both ridiculous stats. But I'm having a good time reading them.

^ You're totally right. I have no idea where Freo would be without Ethan Hughes.

Yeh, I challenged posters to give me a strong attribute that Oscar possesses. And I got two stats. One which I already rebutted because of how misleading it is and the other I didn't even bother with because of how nonsensical it was. A poster measuring Oscar's endurance against other players, based on the minutes he plays on ground ?! Even though he is a key defender. That is not a thing. It's a nonsensical correlation. I maintain that at this level, Oscar doesn't possess one strong and consistent attribute. Frost for example is really fast. That is his strong attribute. Hibberd is a strong user of the footy and strong intercept player. D'you see? Maybe we have a different idea of what difines a strong attribute, because it seems you're telling me what I meant by it. Strong attribute = strength. I'm happy to leave it there.

You're talking about a certain group of posters who are like that on this forum. Many of us knew that last week's game was a response win and the following game against North was going to be just as important, if not more so. If you were to go and look up what acts are included in the "one-percenter" stat, you will find that it's ridiculous and doesn't give a true indication of a player's worth. There are four actions that count toward a one-percenter: Knock-ons, spoils, smothers and shepherds. Now I can say right now that rarely have I seen Oscar smother the ball from someones kick or shepherd. Which leaves two actions left. Now if you go and look at what constitutes a 'spoil' in a marking contest as well as a 'knock-on', you will see how ridiculous these isolated stats are and what indeed is counted as both a spoil and a knock-on. A spoil that is recorded on a stats sheet is extremely limited in that it doesn't take into account things like who's advantage the ball is kicked to, whether or not the forward fumbled a mark, whether the defender fumbled a mark, how effective the spoil was etc etc. I'm talking about real, identifiable attributes. Not wildly inconsistent isolated stats that rarely take into account the wider context of the unfolding play. You might think all those other qualities that you've listed are his 'strong points'. I would say they are minimum requirements for a defender playing at this level. The top level. AFL. Maybe you're part of the soft Melbourne supporter group who are really easily pleased by bare minimums due to the fact that we've been below par for the last decade in nearly every facet of the club. It's not surprising that some supporters get excited by individual play that would otherwise be considered bare-minimum by any decent club's standard. This is not the amateurs. It's the elite. And if we want to compete in this environment, you simply can't be happy with bare-minimum.

It's all relevant. The reason we're talking about going after a player like Steven May is in part because of Oscar's incompetence as a key defender. d'you see?

Worth persisting with because of his age. But not at AFL level for at least two years.

Please go away with your pointless stats. Watch the game. Not the stats sheet.

I don't have a suggestion right at this point. I'm completely aware that we have no other real options at present and imo it's the FD who are at question. Clearly, and I mean clearly, they were hoping that Oscar would show a lot more than what he's showing this year and perhaps they thought the same about Frost. I was of the opinion last year that we needed a mature key-defender in our side so that Frost/Oscar could develop at VFL level. Even if it was a slightly older head like Brown or McKenzie who are not the future but would at least be able to compete against bigger forwards and provide some depth. I still maintain we'd be better off this year if we took one.. The only reason Oscar is still running around is because the next bloke in line is a rookie named Declan Keilty. But if it were up to me, I'd be willing to see how he goes. You can't do a lot worse than what you saw yesterday.

If you watch the replay, you will see that Oscar's reaction time to some of Brown's leads were abysmal. Like, seriously abysmal. There is no doubting that it's easy to be completely caught out of position as a defender if there is a turnover up the field, but any defender with decent reaction time and some sort of pace would have at the very least been able to effect a spoil on a few of Brown's leads when the defender and forward were at arms reach of each other. Alex Rance would have done more because he's Alex Rance. For everyone out there who constantly whines about individuals being labelled "whipping boys", there's a reason why you twits. Whilst Dazzle likes to go the extreme with name calling and expletives etc, I would rather just say that they're not at the required level. Someone name me one strong attribute that Oscar has to his game. Anyone. I'll give you $10 if you can. Of course we didn't lose the game because of one or two key defenders yesterday, but again, I'd love posters to watch the replay of Oscars game and let me know how you think he is going. We are crying out for Steven May. Or any half-decent key defender that doesn't make more than two or three catastrophic errors a game.

Disagree majorly. Kelly is not soft in the slightest for a player of his profile which makes him even more valuable. He is a gun and would be a top three player in our side immediately. I reckon the footy department would have no qualms whatsoever about throwing $800k a year at him if he was keen on coming to us, that would be an absolute no-brainer. He is exactly what we're missing. However, I highly doubt he wants to leave GWS when they're on the brink of winning a flag, let-alone come to the AFL's most yoyo form side being the MFC.

That's not true. He is hit and miss, like many players on our list. I like many of Zak's qualities, but kicking is not one and if we're bringing in players next year, I want all of them to be able to use the footy. It's the most glaringly obvious weakness that we possess throughout our list.

Hibberd is clear as day evidence that kicking skills, decision making and general attack on the ball are all qualities you either have in spades or you're lacking. ie - the fact he missed most of the pre-season with the main group counts for nothing. He straightens us up to no end. I love the guy.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is the most overtalked and overrated piece of play around these parts? The way posters talk about it is as if it was the making of Brayshaw. He read the flight of the ball well and made a decision to intercept mark the ball. It's no surprise he shot past several Geelong players on the way through due to the fact that they were running the opposite way right up until he marked it... And as for the kick, it was just a long kick to a 200cm giant. If you look at the replay closely you'll realise that the kick isn't actually really to the advantage of Spencer. I consider Spencer's mark the most impressive part of the play. Because it was an extremely fortunate mark. It just stuck to his mits. Anyway. Regardless of all of that, I'm confident Brayshaw will be a player in time. And believe like Roos, he is a pure ball winning mid and will be of most value when he's moved there full time.

* I want to preface this by thanking whoever the legend was that changed all demonland txt to 'bold'... Now I can't use my signature highlighting tool. A couple of points to your post. Firstly, the fact we conceded nine points more again doesn't tell the full story. What was the opposition inside 50 count average from 2014 onwards for example? That is a much better stat if you're choosing to continue to use them. It's about how much ball they were both exposed to and I don't need to tell you not every forward entry results in any score. There are useful stats as you've mentioned that coaches use and there are pointless stats used completely out of context by a football supporter. The numbers comparison game that posters are playing to determine 'who is the better player' being the latter. I don't buy it. It's the same as when posters were thinking we'd struck gold when Gysberts got close to the thirty possession mark in his first three games. Some supporters get way too sucked in by numbers and that's what has happened here. And as for the draft number, the following is exactly the type of context that is relevant for the stat (that you think is useless). - Both drafted in the 2014 draft as key position defenders. - Lever missed the entire 2014 year due to an ACL injury but still went inside the top 15 of that year. He was an underage Vic Metro player and the captain of his TAC cup side and had an incredibly strong 2013 year. Oscar started his 2014 year as key forward, was overlooked for the national carnival and played as a key defender for the second half of the year to come into contention as high as the second-round but ended up going in the third round. - Generally, a pick number will give a fairly good indication of the quality of one key defender who goes in the first-round compared to one who goes in the third-round, unless of course there has been a significant injury/special circumstance that has meant one player has had less exposure than another. Lever in this case was the one who spent his entire draft year having not played a single game. Yet he still went at pick 14. Oscar had no injury and only switched to defence in the second half of the year. This is a fairly strong indication of who the better player is. Without having played a game of league football. Single attributes alone, Lever has him covered in almost every aspect of the game and only Melbourne supporters would tell you otherwise.

^ For all of those who look at the above and and conclude that Oscar is at the same level as Lever as a player, do you consider the following: In which teams defensive 50 has the ball spent most time in over Lever and O-Mac's career? I would almost certainly say ours. Which most obviously means Oscar will see more opportunity of gaining kicks, handballs, disposals, tackles etc ect. I never really understand why posters provide stats like that, given they're playing in two different teams that have been at opposite ends of the ladder for the past three years. Anyone that has a decent eye for the game with a balanced view would agree that Lever, (after an ACL comeback pre-draft) is a significantly better and more talented player than Oscar, even if his numbers don't show it yet to the stat obsessers. That's not even considering where they went in their drafts. Again, Lever was touted as a top 10 pick pre-injury. Oscar had no injury problems and went at 50-odd.

If the thread/discussion re: Lever is of no interest to you, why do you feel the need to comment? This is a [censored] supporters forum. What part of that doesn't compute for you?

@McQueen - Because I saw the article floating around and thought I'd share it as a point of discussion. I too think offering up Brayshaw is going a bit far. There's a whole lot of untapped potential there, although I do think many demonanders believe him to be something that he's not; that being a classy and skilled user of the footy. Gussy will be part of a top five most important players in a couple of years, I'm sure of it. His attack on the ball, man and ability to mark above his head are his strengths. He is dual sided, but definitely not in the Mitchell league. It's an area he needs to clean up though, for sure. I'm sure most are aware of the fact that we'll need to keep as much of our core together as possible to have a shot at the flag. Our core being Hogan, Weeds, Viney, Salem, Petracca, Oliver, Brayshaw, Hunt, Stretch etc. So if we were going to go after Lever, we'd be offering a fringe player and some future picks including a first rounder. Anyway, too early to speculate but he's definitely a player I'd love at the club. I heard Mahoney saying not long ago that we have saved coin to lure someone at the right time and when I look at our list, I believe we're another quality tall defender short and perhaps a classy and skilled power running mid short.

Prepare for the storm that is about to rain down on you.

If we wanted him that badly and he was keen on coming back to Vic/us, we'd be able to satisfy the Crows. Let's hope his girlfriend decides she wants to come back home because that- as he states- (along with family) will be the deciding factor. I think we're two players short of being a well balanced list. Another quality key defender and a Josh Kelly type of mid. (Someone with silky skills and a tank).

Lever waiting on CBA before signing contract Get. Him. Here. 2018 backline: FB Jetta Lever Hibberd HB Hunt T-Mac Salem/Vince/Lewis/Jones

At least we got Pederson out of the trade. Rather than pick no. 12,000 like we did for Morton.