stevethemanjordan

Please keep them coming

Very good. It'd be incredibly boring to be an on the fence supporter, always believing it'll work out. Strangely enough the players seem to think that way too. Imagine if you were head coach Wiseblood. You'd still have Garland running around believing that he's doing a great job.

If people want more of what you saw in the first quarter against Collingwood as well as numerous other games this year then sure, let's draft him. Foot-skills and pace are not his strong points. Forget the romanticism, we wouldn't go near him with pick 10.

I believe that we as supporters have a much greater input and influence than you and others may give credit for. The examples are endless. The pats on the back that our supporters give to players who fall short in their ability to make a genuine and tangible impact on the club and game. It's the way in which the support is given. Watts gets 20 possessions and two goals and everyone pats him on the back as if he's ripped the game apart. Why? Because we're used to mediocrity. It's an on-flow effect. Watts then sits back and thinks, "yeh Gee, I played pretty well" and then just floats along. We seem to have other young players with enormous potential who do the same. We pat Max Gawn on the back for one great year and he does the same. We applaud mediocrity. We've been so bad for so long in so many areas that some supporters' understanding and perspective of what should be applauded is so out of whack. It's a cycle, I don't care if others don't agree. Generally they're the ones who are stuck in that bubble of whack perspective. Sydney have created something up there that is real. Other clubs do the same. You can always pick out stars and game changers at other clubs. I can't with us. And I think part of it is to do with the way Melbourne supporters operate. It has to go hand-in-hand. We are part of the club and part of what creates any sort of atmosphere at a game. I could go on..

1 - The soft-bellied Melbourne supporter. Demonland is rife with them, (without naming names) and it's an attitudinal problem steeped in accepting mediocrity. It's a condition that has developed over time and whilst I'm by no means as old as some of our loyal supporters, I know that mediocrity is applauded by so many and I vehemently believe that a supporter group's psyche is wholly married to the the club and players. From applauding 'effort' for a loss or congratulating Jack Watts in a game that would otherwise be considered a pass, to some of the posts I've read post-Saturday suggesting that "we're not ready" for finals and we would've been "knocked straight out" anyway. The way some of our supporters can so easily accept and applaud this is genuinely nauseating. The Melbourne supporter is a different type and @Colin B. Flaubert made a sublime contribution in the 'Post Mortem' thread outlining an 'arrogance' that is intrinsic to both club and supporter. As if for us it'll eventually just happen. 2 - Vocation Vs lifestyle. How many players on our current list would you consider are living the life of an AFL footballer vs living the life of an AFL footballer. How many players both past and present could one sit next to Nathan Jones and say that they've devoted the same amount of energy into being an AFL footballer as he has? From Watts and Gawn to Frawley and Sylvia. The list of players who come through the doors of the MFC only to tap into half of their capacity as players and even humans is endless. It's no wonder we haven't unearthed a star for so long. Players need to adopt a philosophy on what it means to live in this world. What it means to have a vocation. What it means to have a purpose. Players need to be educated on what it means to be human. What their their very real capacity is and where it could take them. I look at Sydney and think about their players. Players like Parker. A pick 40 in the 2010 draft. But someone who has wholly given themselves to being an AFL footballer. Max Gawn has one AA year and look at his last month of football? The way he has been playing and the way he carries himself. He is caught up in the celebrity life that comes with being an AFL footballer. Watts is the same. Bugg is the same. Frawley and Sylvia were the same. Examples are everywhere. Who do we hold accountable for this? When does it change? 3 - Genuine list imbalance. This is by far the easiest to fix. This point could be broken down into sub-headings but I will try and keep it as one. I would go so far to disagree with the majority of the supporters on here who believe that the major reason we lost to Collingwood was because of a lack of care or war although there were absolutely some appalling efforts when it came to running defensively and defensive efforts in general from some players which is linked to the point above. I don't care for stats much as most know, but what my eyes tell me when I watch our team play is that we have a genuine lack of decision making and kicking/handballing execution skills across the entire list. It's an obvious weakness and is the sole reason we let so many teams either back into games or kick away with bags of consecutive goals. Other variables such as momentum, individual player confidence and performance levels and crowd also come into play but only after the fact. We lost the game in the first quarter and it was undoubtedly because of skill errors and turnovers. You simply cannot tackle an opposition team when you turn the ball over on the fly. Both tackling numbers were down in the first quarter but ours were worse because we were worse by foot and they made us pay. In the last three rounds of football we had Dom Tyson (Inside mid) playing on a wing, ANB (Inside mid) playing on a flank and Brayshaw (Inside mid) playing on a back-flank. Three players that are playing positions they should not be playing in at AFL level. Wing - To see an improvement next year, we need an actual wingman. A player who has the capacity to run hard two-ways and uses the ball well. That player is not Dom Tyson. He almost single-handedly caused us the most damage in the first quarter on Saturday. His disposal quality, his opponent Phillips and his lack of two-way running and defensive pressure absolutely destroyed us. It would be the same as playing Matt Priddis on a wing. I don't understand it for the life of me. Half-forward - ANB. Role player or not, Richmond have proven this year how important it is to have genuine small forwards in your side. They completely changed the profile of their list by playing all three of Rioli, Castagna and Butler in their forward-half. All players are fairly smart, two of them are good users, they threaten the scoreboard and they're all unbelievably quick and apply manic pressure at all times. ANB was drafted as an inside mid whose strength is his endurance and grunt. He is a player who is limited in his skills, decision making and goal kicking. He simply shouldn't be playing that position. It's like Rohan Bail all over again in that one decent year he had. Half-back - Brayshaw. I understand that almost out of necessity he was re-introduced to the AFL lineup at half-back but I hope supporters now realise like they have with Tyson that he is not an elite user of the ball. He is effective. But he also butchers it. His one wood is as an inside mid and by god he better be back in that midfield mix next year permanently. I'm not going to debate whether or not players like Tyson should be traded/delisted etc like many posters have in other threads. (I'll do that in the Tyson thread). But what I'm absolutely certain of is that these three positions must be filled with players who suit those positions and will therefore change the balance of our side for the better. It'd have an enormous positive influence if we identified the right players with the right attributes. There's plenty more I could go on about in regards to the state of our list but these three positions are a start and the three points in this thread are of great significance to me and are ones I care about deeply. If all three are addressed over the off-season in some capacity, we could see a big jump from the club.

On a good day.

Spencer's lack of impact around the ground is what has limited his opportunities. Pedo playing second fiddle adds much greater value and even Watts was effective enough in there. Sure he'd be fine to have as insurance in case Gawn did go down again but I hardly think he'll be cool playing the rest of his career as a backup option only. And if he goes, perhaps we'll bring in a mature-age ruck of sorts. I imagine Mitch King will be nearly ready for an AFL taste next year also.

You're my favourite person.

Kelly is a gun. But Kelly won't stop our leaky defence. Hibberd has a difficult enough time doing that atm.

Overall, your post misses some really important details and points in regards to this argument. The first point I would bring to light is the significance of draft positions and the specific attributes that all those players you've mentioned either had or didn't have coming into the AFL system. Rance went at pick #18, Richards went at pick #27 and Jones at #32 in their draft years respectively. Frost and McGovern were both rookie picks. Frost was a rookie because of his obvious football-skill specific limitations whereas McGovern was simply the opposite. The knock was on his athletic and physiological capabilities but he had football smarts and was a natural footballer. His fundamentals were sound. Frost was at a disadvantage before he even entered the AFL system. He was a volley-ball/basketballer turned footballer who's very weaknesses have all been football-specific. Foot-skills, ball-handling, game sense, game awareness, handballing, football smarts etc. None of the list you've mentioned had or have the same number of weaknesses in the 'football specific' attributes column. Rance's kicking has been the knock early on, but he is simply incomparable to Frost due to the sheer number of outstanding football qualities he possessed which was evidenced by the fact he went at #18 in his draft year. Frost is in his 6th year and is playing reserves in a side that has possibly the weakest key defensive unit within the AFL. Rance was an AA in his 6th year, McGovern was in the 40-man squad in his 5th year and Jones is currently heralded as one of the best key defenders in the game after having played the position for half the year. Richards is the only one who took his time to find his groove and again that wasn't because of a lack of ability/below average footy-specific skills. By 2010 he was Sydney's best defender, 5 years after his move to the Swans and his move to key defender. Frost is overrated as I've stated. I like the strengths he possesses, but his weaknesses are across the most important attributes one needs to succeed at this level.

It would be close to impossible to land Kelly and Lever. In a perfect world I'd love to land Lever, sign Motlop as a free agent and then hit the drafts/trade for some class and run.

I would bet safely that a list manager would say the complete opposite. A questionable best 22 veteran coming off an ACL injury for the last year of his contract VS a full year of development for a kid. I'd say it's a fairly obvious decision from a 'what's best for the club' perspective. Unless of course they put Garland onto the rookie list.

Would love to know why Burgan/Misson did their injury report video this week. Literally told us nothing we don't already know in regards to all players but especially Viney. Why is there such a lack of transparency with reporting injuries at our club? Why so coy? Nobody knows anything more than the fact his foot is 'sore'. I don't get why they bother doing video injury report updates.

Solid at butchering the ball*

Again, not here to pot Frost for those who will no doubt believe otherwise. But a question to those of you who highlight his strengths as a player needs to be asked and then addressed. Is there any point in having lightening speed, great athleticism if your fundamental football specific skills are average at best? Yeh Frost has taken some fantastic contest grabs as a defender, but he's also had the same amount of absolute howlers that have turned into opposition scores. Yeh Frost has had some lightening fast line-breaking runs. But he also turns the ball over just as often as he makes those runs. Why do people ignore this when naming his strengths? Maybe because the hope for most is that those footy specific skills will improve enough for him to become a consistent contributor as a key backman? We also have hope that Oscar will improve enough to reach a consistent level. And we have Tom McDonald who at over 100 games experience, still struggles to perform consistently as a defender? Ideally you want high end talent spanning across all lines of your list. Clearly ours is stacked in the midfield and forward line, with little high end talent in our backline and especially our key defensive group. Frost is as expendable as they come right now for us. We have too many 'ifs' and 'hopes' for our three key defenders. Lever being high end talent would transform our backline, I know everyone agrees with that. But what is the obsession with keeping Frost?

Given it's the last year of his contract next year and he wasn't even best 22 before he did his injury, he'd be taking a valuable development year off a draftee. I'd say there's quite some harm in that. Frost is one of the most overrated players on this forum. He'd be absolutely no loss if we got Lever.

Oath. Add into the equation that Jones, Viney, Hogan, Gawn have all been injured throughout the season with a host of others missing games. @binman, it's a silly bet and it most certainly won't change my view if he does indeed finish 10th. (Which by the way I can't see happening let alone inside the top 10). But i'll stop the Oscar talk for the rest of the year. (Unless he literally costs us a final).

It hasn't. I'd say 80% of the thread is about Lever. There's nothing wrong with comparing players anyway. As for which defensive group you'd have, Adelaide's is much better than ours at full strength. Their depth, talent and experience are way above ours.

One can never be certain around these parts.

Those stats should be pinned on all threads discussing the quality of our key defenders. Take note @binman and @Vogon Poetry

I'm not convinced. Sydney are rarely 'off'. Their start to the year was an exception and they had some injuries to key players as well. Their formline since is by far the best in the comp. They have been ultra consistent and Hawthorn were able to get their kicking game going against the Swans up there. We don't have a kicking game, we'd be relying solely on our contest work to get us on top. And Sydney are the contest kings. At the SCG, they'd squeeze us into a pulp with their pressure and superior ball-handling and ball movement skills.

Take away Jeremy's marking and he's pretty rubbish. Lacks any real natural defensive foundation to his game because he was a forward as a junior. Lever trumps him in most facets of the game by some margin.

Bugg should not come back in. We have enough ball killers in the side as is and ANB + Harmes have taken his position. Both of whom already have iffy disposal at times. We need ball users in. Bit the bullet on Watts, hopefully he's hungry again and the omission has put him on notice, (again). Salem in for Wagner. Watts in for Stretch. Hunt up to a wing with Lewis to play back flank. A backline of: Jetta Oscar Hibberd Salem T-Mac Lewis ^ Much more settled and three of our best users are back there. Salem/Lewis to take kick outs.

^ I find it funny that posters play down the importance of an effective intercept player. Almost as though they have an easier job than a player who doesn't have the same intercept ability. The fact that Lever is number 1 on the list as a key defender at the same age as O-Mac and similar games is mind blowing. Do supporters understand that intercept players also have opponents to play on too? Hibberd is our best intercept player and sits at number 9 on that list and he's arguably now one of our most important players. Imagine having a key defender version of him..