Rhino Richards

Possibly the best post I have read for some time on this site (No Offence W.Jack). A thoughtful and sensible piece. Well done.

He was very good in the Toyota ad. After his shafting of St Kilda you have got to be kidding

I think you are right Nasher. The problem that the players were so unaccountable, we cant even shut down a game. However I disagree about Bruce. I think he is mediore as a media performer. I think Robbo is just horrible. His interview before the game on 774 was disappointing in a number of facets.

As Old and I pointed out the negative football you did not like was part of the catalyst for us winning many games and controlling and running centre contest. Its not what you wanted to hear at the time and still dont. And with things going bad for a myriad reason its a perfect time for people who did not understand what was going on to misguidedly claim they were right now.

I dont think the premiership is tainted or that we give the flag to the Dockers. Its Headlands reaction to the matter than lost them the game and he should be responsible for his actions. The MFCplayer should be accountable to the AFL tirbunal for breach of the Code of Conduct For the players involved, the people in the subjected abuse, their Clubs, the AFL, supporters and the game itself there is a loss. If the AFL is serious about the promotion of the game, the Clubs should be in no doubt what is and what is not acceptable. Given the importance of a Grand Final, the penalties for Headland like incident should be a multiple of the existing case.

I would be surprised if that scenario happened. There is more to this than just the injuries.

Dont bet on it. There are more issues than just the injuries and ultimately the Coach takes the responsibility for it.

Look I think we are close but certainly differ on where we are at as a club. I am as concerned about the injured players as I am about those who are not and who are not performing. While mathematically we can make the Top 4 and the Top 8 still, I reckon we are extremely doubtful to figure in things this year and 2008 will depend upon an incoming coaches point of view on the list. My gut says we wont be it. Cant be more specific Even so I still think you play players especially younger players based on their form and their capacity to perform at that level. The allegation made that ND is playing old favourites instead of the kids just aint valid so far as none have been fit and firing to go. Newton's intra club match posed the question to me that in his 3rd year in the system "Do you really want to do what it takes to succeed?" His attitude and body language during the game was almost a sigh of resignation "Oh well, that's that I guess" That sort of thing you dont change overnight or in a few weeks. Newton has to build some core beliefs on which to base his confidence on. Until he has those and actually play like he believes in them its a waste of time. If MFC are blooding Buckley, Pettard and Garland this week and trying to resurrect 2nd years Bate, Dunn and CJ in a crippled side its a hard and unreasonable ask to play a green kid who has critical issues at this point. He may get there by year end but he may not. If he does he will get a run.

Agree Bob. Selwood has defamed himself. We are not talking about the law and prosecution under it but the assess of the behaviour in accoradance with a Code of Conduct of a sporting association tribunal made up of ex-players and an ex-umpire. There is no community involvement in the process. However, the panel will have to address the behaviour in accordance with the Code and with an eye protecting the AFL's public image.

I dont think legality is the issue. I think the AFL needs to assess the appropriateness of the conduct and act accordingly. FWIW, I do know of an ex - AFL player who during his playing days had his daughter die from a terrible infliction. In a match not more than 12 months after the incident, he taunted on the field about his daughter and what had happened to her. He did not strike out or complain. I was party to his recounting of the incident. Its was as disgusting and sick as the alleged Selwood incident. This happened about 10 years ago and the AFL would have been aware of this going on. Ash I think Selwood's comments fall into one of my no go categories above. If the Clubs were not aware of the benchmark they should be after the tribunal.

I have not entered this debate before and much of what I have read is off the mark and does not address the issues. FWIW, I don’t think Headland’s response has anything to do with it. I think Selwood’s alleged statements highlight there are topics which within our society are verboten for exploitation when it comes to issues of gamesmanship. The key ones are: 1. Racial/Ethnicity 2. Religious (across Islamic,Christian or Judaism). I don’t think the Catholic/ Protestant issue is one now. 3. Criminal acts of a sexual nature –eg rape, paedophilia 4. Deceased relatives or close associates 5. Seriously or terminally ill relatives or close associates There are probably others too. This is not a matter of whether the behaviour of Selwood is criminal or not. It is not. Its not a matter of what a Court of law would do. Its not relevant. It’s an issue for the Sports governing body to determine whether such behaviour is acceptable given the role and position of football in this community and to consider the damage to the game arising from it. To me its not a storm in the teacup but a clear indication of where some of the boundaries are in sportsman behaviour and gamesmanship. This is just like the Winmar at Victoria Park and Peter Everitt case on racial issues I don’t buy the “Win at all Costs” justification because in the end everyone loses from the player, the Club, the game and the supporters. It’s the same extension of this theory that provides stimulus and resolve for drug cheats in all sports Furthermore, the justification that well it “worked” because it put him off his game and we “won” is also erroneous. Selwood is just a long line of examples from WCE who seem to say all things are OK so long as we win the flag. But everything else loses, none more so than the players involved. I would expect the AFL to fine Selwood if he is found guilty and effectively make a statement by way of significant monetary fine that such acts of gamesmanship are not to be tolerated. I think the AFL has no other choice for its own credibility to act swiftly in this matter. Football and sport are great pastimes that potentially offer much to society. I am not sure what Selwood’s behaviour if proven by the Tribunal adds to this.

Jaded unlike the standard and proven recovery process of 12 months for an RCL there is no such process for OP. I dont think you can say Moloney was played too early as it is not always clear to determine they are fully recovered. With all these outs, you will finally get your "kids" playing.

I know you would know Nasher, you technological marvel!

Agree with both your posts Graz. I share your outlook.

Physically ready is only one part of it not the sole criteria of player dvelopment and that is where your argument if fundamentally flawed. It makes your comment about his pre –season uninformed and naïve. FWIW I have seen him play at Sandy often in the 2nds over the past two years and at training. I think I know what he can achieve. I glad he is making some progress at Sandy but his intra club performance was disturbing. Having been exposed for not being across issues you wish to make statements about its rather unnecessary to imply that on someone else. His biggest issue is understanding the disciplines of what is required for playing senior football and the focussing on the consistent application of his potential and what you have to do when you don’t have the ball. He is seriously green in that area and needs to develop it. He had too much talent for Sandy 2s and would display his potential in short bursts but not apply for sustained periods. He was able to skirt by on irregular shows of skill not its consistent application. Newton is one of the prime victims of the MFC/Sandy alliance. Baseed on his performances last year in Sandy 2s he deserves elevation to Sandy 1s. However his path was blocked primarily by Sautner but also having Dunn, Miller and 426 in Sandy. The problem still remains with Sautner. It would preferable for him to be FF but that wont happen while Sautner is fit. As I said the experience on the wing keeps Newton within the play all the time and is constant reminder that talent is applied for 100 minutes and not in bursts. As a person and a player Brad Miller is far more mature footballer at the same age. However he does not have the talent Newton has. I'd rather try tactics and selections that would bring about a win. Our short term situation is critical and I dont want to risk the long term development of players to do it. If ND is true to his word and that MFC will try and scrap a win I think there is even less space for Newton than in a normal situation. Correct and he has not got a game because he has yet to demonstrate the requisite application to show that he is ready to make the next step. And as I said before, the crap form of other players does not make Newton any more ready than he is. You are not think rationally on a fully informed basis and it undermines your argument. P.S. When you reply to an e-mail there are quote marks above and below. Copy and paste those individually before and after the section you want to reply specifically to. There is probably easier ways but I will leave to the Nasher's of this world to advise.

Its not the number of years but the age and the relative development of a player. Oh dear. You did not see the intra-club did you. Its was not a senior game. Its was half paced hit out and he was horrible...really horrible. The poor quality of the incumbent players does not make Newton a better player nor should sensibly altered his development Talk to Sandy about it. So is playing on the wing or playing CHF. That's crap DD. Without the missing attributes to his game, Newton is actually robbing Newton of his strengths. Miller is no basis to suggest a strategy as he is not a CHF's bootlace. You are letting your own desparation and frustration block your common sense. A player like newton is DEFINITELY a confidence player and he should be handled carefully. Refer intra-club match report. He got a sniff there and it was well well beyond him and he curled up like a ball. Funny the issue of justifying his spot does not apply to him as it does others. Keep bathing.

Redleg, You will note that I said some posters not all. I dont regard you as knowing diddly squat as I know you actually get to the Sandy games and see the players. Many of the poster dont and make unsubstantiated comments on the form or otherwise of MFC Sandy based players. In regard to your responses, I say: 1. I dont necessarily agree due to some of reasons below: 2. McLean, Bell, Sylvia have had considererable and extended OP and other injury problems which has staggered their development and ability to physically cope with AFL football. They have had to be nursed through the recovery process includeing some time at Sandy. FWIW, I think Bell has been given every opportunity to succeed and I am glad he is the one bright spot in this year. For 2 years of Jamar's career we had Jolly and we played 2 ruckman. Jamar actually overtook Jolly in 2004. He was green as leaf then. He has not change much. PJ cant mark and cant ruck so where do you play him with a fit side? Miller has had significant opportunity since he debuted in 2002. He just has not improved. From what you have seen what more do you expect from Miller, Jamar and PJ. 3. Other teams play their recruits as soon as possible and we need look no further than Cox, Dick and Toovey for the Pies. All three are not hulks but the latter two kicked 5 goals and helped their side with pace and enthusiasm win a game. By the way I dont think the matter is vindicated by one game. It assessed over a period of time as you alluded in point 2. With due respect to Collingwood they still had a nucleus of a capable side out there playing one who did not. Given their depth players are worse than ours what choice did they have? Also Collingwood believe themselves to be in a re building stage of their list given they had swapped Tarrant and were prepared to take the risk to play the younger players. 4. Had we known the injury problems McLean, Sylvia and Bell have had would we have recruited them? Or if McLean, Sylvia and Bell are fit from day 1 I dont think we would be asking that question? 5. No 6. We are missing the ability to win the ball and move the ball quickly and efficiently with skill. We have Davey, Bell, Jones and Bate with pace. What use is pace when you dont have the ball 7. See point 6 8. Ideally a side should be chosen with the primary reason to win the game. Prior to the match I thought Holland was a better selection. At pinch has shown the ability to play forward and back. I dont think Newton is up to it at this point. So if I did not pick Holland I would not have necessarily played Newton there. 9. The benefits of tanking have been reduced and I have a real problem with many aspects of a Club tanking from Round 3 on. At the moment we dont know Judd is going to PSD and is dangerous to think he is. Also we dont know if the No 1 pick is a Bryce Gibbs or a Des Headland or Michael Gardiner. I dont see the point of ND tanking because he wont be around next year. Its a good question to ask Terry Wallace though. 10. No 11. Do we have a Tom Hawkins or Bryce Gibbs on our list? Tom Hawkins is a No1 draft pick who dominated U17s and has done well in pre season. He was ready to play his role. I do note that Geelong took him off early in the third quarter. Now why was that?.

Newton was a low age recruit who in the normal course of events would normally be taken 12 months later but potentially earlier in the draft. He was awful pre -season. he played an intra club match which was low key and he floundered badly. He dissolved as a player under very little pressure. its wasc disappointing for spectators and embarrassing for Newton. he was overlooked for any further pre season involvement as he was so far off the standard. He just did not give a yelp. He has only started playing at Sandy 1s this year and has yet to star. With Saunter at Sandy, he is not going to play FF. However, by playing him on the wing he is getting into more of the play and a chance to deliver his skill at this level consistently. But he is still a development He is very talented but also extremely inconsistent in the delivery of it and his maturity as a footballer is still very early. Some of the calls on Newton to be played are bathed in naivety and ignorance by people who know diddly squat about player development. He is the very sort of player that would be crushed under the pressure of AFL and lose the little confidence he may have regained since that horrible intra club performance. And say they would be as good as the sub standard expereienced performers is short term blindness to the detriment of their long term development. Over the course of the year, Pettard and Buckley will play and I look forward to them performing better than incumbents. However Newton may take a little longer to be there.

I totally agree.

IMO he retired 3 years ago and has just been doing a rare cameo now and again....nothing strenuous mind you.

Totally correct Phoenix. Those thinking Yze was not used properly are clutching at straws. He's not up to it.

Who would honestly want him.

Correction. Holland played injured at FF and did nought and then replaced by Bizzell who did even less. Yze played up the ground. Perfect game for him that day. Two sides playing unaccountable football. Its a pity his game was marred by some offensive clangers.

Fair enough. I think your starting point might be out. You have that rabble on the weekend averaging a 6. Now its a 5. Realistically the average should touch below 4 and some of the players getting 1s and 2s.