Rhino Richards

I dont think so. So should we assume that any Club that takes a No 1 draft pick that is 17 to 18 is not trying to make the finals? If we are 4 wins from six games this year (and I did say if), should we starting cashing in our chips to miss out on the finals? In truth every Club is aiming at success (with finals being at an early part of it) but are realistic to know the difficulty in achieving it and what is required to get there. No sensible team blocks finals out in January

Gary Lyon was a wonderful player for the Club but not elite. Injuries may have robbed him of many games in 1995 onwards but despite his talent in other areas was not good overhead. He is close but not there IMO. Post 1987 only the Ox (pre ACL problems), Jako (attitude and fitness) and Wiz (attitude, consistency, maturity and other issues) had the potential to be so but never took the steps.

The truth is that no matter how much you gloss it we were well short in 1994 and 1998 and the reason was........we did not have the players (read stars) that step up in the heat of battle and excel in the toughest form of the game finals football. We have had no one thats elite. We have players that have been great on their day and seduce you to thinking that they are elite but inevitably they fall at the biggest hurdle. Maybe if injury/attitude had not cruelled them then one or two might have got there. McLean could be an honest hard working midfielder that hopefully play more than 200 games for MFC but will never be elite. Its his sixth year of AFL football coming up and he has not deliver anything from a performance level to suggest otherwise. Maybe with an injury free run... But his injury/fitness levels are a concern. Here's hoping with Watts and others.

Correct. He also has Year 12 responsibilities. However I cant see MFC wanting Watts to be playing an APS game on the Friday, two days before an AFL game. Many of the APS games are Saturday as well. I'll take what comes with Watts. On ability he would be worth 22 games and finals. I think they will give him a taste but do sensitively given his age, his pressures etc. I think we need to be patient.

Rubbish. Tingay was too injury prone and missed 4 to 5 years of football when he was at his prime. He was important in MFC's 1994 and 1998 finals push but not elite. Lovett - Brett or Glenn?? Glenn had chronic soft tissues. Brett Lovett lack pace (made up for it in other area) and played off the half back line. Viney- Hard strong inside midfielder whose game was let down by ordinary foot disposal. All good MFC players in their time but not elite and barely troubled the MFC team of the century. Look at other clubs recently..... Hawthorn have Hodge, Franklin Geelong have Ablett, Bartels WCE had at their peak...Cousins and Judd....Cox has been the best big man in the 10 years IMO but the argument over ruckman's importance has dwindled Freo have got Pavlich Essendon had Hird, Fletcher Brisbane have had Voss, Aker, Black and Brown Collingwood have had Buckley Western Bulldogs have had Johnson, West... Cooney could be there at the end of his career. North have had Archer, Carey The above players have been consistent and often brilliant standout players for the side in theri positions that have changed and won matches by their superior performance. MFC have had good players some very good but the only player I can put in that company is Flower. We have not had anyone close to his calibre and performance since his retirement. ATM, we have many midfielders at MFC that just cant perform/ execute at the standard required in AFL. Some of that is youth and inexperience. Some are not IMO good enough and will be phased out over the next two years and hopefully be replaced by more appropriate types that will develop. We need the young players to step up and develop even beyond the Tingay, Lovett and Viney standards but it would be good if many of our "depth" players were that good. And yes we do need one or two players to become elite.

Thinking that myself.

Good post Phoenix and definitely worthy consideration. ATM, where the game is going I think a top side needs a top quality midfield with a capable ruck division centred around a perfunctionary pairing that oscillate on/off the bench with the odd stint forward. Both Hawthorn and Geelong have that and they also have very strong midfields.

The last real "star" or elite of the game MFC produced was Robert Flower and he retired in 1987. MFC have had stacks of midfielders since then and we have not produced a star. Quantity does not guarantee quality. Half of the 20 you list are NQR, mediocre or pedestrian. Some are not even midfielders. Some will not make it past two years of borderline footbal. There is a 2 or 3 that have potential with no certainty of making the big steps required. Not all of them will make the star level. And its a stretch at best to have Watts in the midfield. MFC would want Watts to become a star but it is more than likely it will be up forward. If we are to serious challenge in the coming years we need a quality midfielder that it includes the development of 2 or 3 top players within those ranks.

Focus on the QUALITY not the QUANTITY. Currently we have senior players who are at best in few instances capable but some who are NQR and we have young players with unproven potential that is not guaranteed in each case to evolve into playing talent. If we dont have players rising to become A graders rather than C grade quality we have seen over the past 2 years, it would not matter if we had 40 of them. And depth is an illusion and a waste if you dont have the cream in top half dozen players.

Warnock reported to have a $tre$$ fracture in hi$ foot and will mi$$ 8 week$ of training. Hmmmm!

Fantastic Series with a fitting and dramatic finale that gives great credit to both captains, both sides and the administration. The best series since the Ashes 2005. Both sides should be absolutely praised for the competitive character and sportsmanship of all the players during an absorbing and rivetting series. The conduct of the players and officials particularly during the contentious Kallis decision was exemplary and should be a training video basis for all other teams. Graeme Smith was a stand out man of the series. And a brave effort in the 2nd innings. The last time I saw this happen was when Pakistani opener Talaat Ali came out to bat with a broken finger against Australia in Adelaide in the early 70s. He held the bat in his good (top) hand and held his injured hand behind his back. He lasted 3 balls. Smith's effort deserves recognition against the quicks. Although the ICC rankings have Australia on top, there is no doubt in my mind that the South Africa is the top side ATM in terms of performance, sportsmanship and character. They absolutely embarrass the Indians in the last two categories who should take a lesson from them. No doubt they wont. Good series coming up in SA. However both sides need to manage their strike bowlers Steyn and Johnson. Both have been fantastic but both looked physically jaded from their herculean efforts. Nothing better than Test cricket. Barely interested in the lolly forms of the game. Meanwhile English cricket once more shoots itself in the foot with the resignation of both Captain and Coach. Roll on Ashes 2009.......

Thanks for the detailed report JJJ. Very informative.

There are two teams in WA for WA companies to fight over. There are 10 teams in Victoria. Its more competitive for the sponsorship dollar here. Collingwood knew they could not keep the prospective sponsor in reserve and knew they would go elsewhere so they sought to direct them to another Club that might be an advantage to them in other ways.

Its got nothing to do with the tap but the freedom of movement of players. Its the physical retardation of the midfielder not the growing importance of the ruckman. Maybe but I dont think we have the midfield ATM to really hurt other sides if given latitiude. Only as an exception. If the midfielder commits to ruck contest on a flank who picks up his direct opponent. The whole point is that the main ruck (unless quite mobile) wont have the time to zone or move forward or back. Believe me I wont!

I thought that in Perth in 2005 when we had McGrath and Warne. Australia must keep pushing for another wicket (or more) pre lunch. Its all about survival now for SA.

Amla c Katich b Hauritz 59 4/110. 266 to win with 6 (make that 5) wickets GAME ON. Australia is heading for the jugular. Great stuff. Good use of the bowlers today. They need to press on for home.

Interesting. If the company wanted a major exposure with CFC but CFC already had major sponsor arrangements in place or the proposed sponsor conflicted with other obligations CFC had and was unable to provide the conditions required by the proposed sponsor, then its shrewd thinking to leverage their opportunities elsewhere. Edit: Just saw Rf's explanation and its correct particularly about WCE.

Any changes re tagging are uinlikely to impact of quality tap ruckwork. What it may do is remove the negative barriers or restrictions to quality players winning the contest ball and utilising it better. No Our biggest weakness is the ability to consistently win the ball in the midfield and use it effectively. As many posters have identified we have a bottom tier quality midfield that is not helped by having a non competitive ruck. Even if we had a Sandilands our shortcomings in the midfield would still be there. The issue of tagging is more to do with the negative tactics to prevent/remove/restrict the ability of better players to participate for the contested ball. A number of such tactics have been cast up to 10 to 15 metres from the ball and the AFL is keen to remove such barriers. The issue with being competitive in the ruck is that if you cant win the ruck hit out you prevent the opposition getting an uinrestricted, unpressured first contact with the ball to advantage. I think the role of ruckman will actually be challenge by the introduction of 4 boundary umpires which means that the ball is likely to be brougth back into play quicker meaning the ruckman will have to have greater mobility and that ruckwork at the flanks will taken by tallish athletic forward or backman who are better located at the throw in. Yes its just speculating nothing else. White has not had tap dominance since the rule change in 2004. We have not had a top quality midfielder since Scott Thompson and it shows badly.

The wickets yesterday fell to batsman error not from the ball doing anything significantly off the track. The first hour is critical for both sides. Australia needs wickets, SA needs runs and no outs. The pitch is still good to bat on. Australia does not have a fifth day bowler. Every bowler needs to chip in and take a wicket or two but McDonald will be important for the one that could keep low. SA have their nose in front at this point.

Its more reliable than your "opinion" that its two year contract. Still ready to take on the bet for the benefit of MFC, shooter.

Well done Ace. Lions last won a flag in 2003 with a midfield of Voss, Aker, Lappin, Black (NSM), Hart and Power. Back then Keating was a nice to have in one of the best all time midfields. And Collingwood's ruck that day was barely competent. As good as the defensive pressure by a forward is overrated theory. Good grief!

You have tried to make a case that quality ruckman influence a team's performance and plucked the odd quarter/game and a utube filmclip to back your argument when the evidence and the flimclip actually suggest the premierships and top sides are based on superior midfields. No one is doubting the benefit of having a Cox over a Pattison. Its just that difference is not what makes or breaks a side. A superior midfield does that. If you read Goodvibes succinct and easy to read explanation of where things are at.

Right on the money, Vibes.

Have a cigar! B)

Really???