Rhino Richards

On your criteria, Martin Pike would make the elite. FFS, Buckley has been a regular big game player for Collingwood throughout his career and almost singlehandlely lead an ordinary Collingwood side to a boilover win in the 2002 GF against one of the great sides of recent memory. He won the NSM in a losing side that day. And Collingwood losses in those grand finals could not be attributed to his contribution.Cheap and uninformed shot at a player who was named in the Pies Team of the Century and he still played on for another 5 years. And no Carey with Hird and Voss... dream on.

Davey has more football ability than Miller. However, he does not have the maturity, temperament or character to lead like Miller. I agree that Miller needs to keep performing as a player to keep his spot though.

Who constitutes the leadership group and what process do they make the decisions? I note you did not comment on my quote on who decided the Ashes 2005 punishment. No wonder Mo. Cricket Australia has had every opportunity to act in the past and has chosen not to and left it as "the leadership group" (containing only Ponting as a player at least at the Ashes 2005 ) to suspend him for two matches both times. Hardly softly softly and their penalties were stiffer than the Code of Conduct. What would you suggest a public hanging? If anything the penalties applied by the leadership group have made a fool of you once again.

No Mo...you are wrong as usual. http://content-www.cricinfo.com/australia/...ory/211376.html "After the shock defeat [against Bangladesh], Ponting, John Buchanan and Steve Bernard - captain, coach and manager - met to discuss the issue [symonds], and exchanged views with Cricket Australia headquarters in Melbourne." Isnt that akin to the footy dept Mo? Also.... it was his first offence by the ACB at verbal abuse of a player from another team not his first offense overall. And given Symond Test/ODI career is all but finished (this event is but another nail in the coffin), I dont think a suspension would be much of a penalty. Just like a Court condemning a dead man to life imprisonment. The fine was more appropriate. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/30/2478184.htm "During the 2005 Ashes tour Symonds showed up drunk for a one-day game and was threatened with the sack by CA's chief executive James Sutherland." The ACB is well aware that while he is a contracted player, Symonds represents a PR timebomb waiting to go off. They are well aware of the problem but need to manage him while contracted to avoid negative PR implications for cricket. Do you understand what the various roles in the football department do? Clearly not and its consistent with your grasp of other matters. "capt., vc, and dvc" - And they call that a leadership group Mo. But of course you think they are overrated.Good grief And I thought you had an alternative to back up another whinge Mo. There was no punishment given to McLean and Carroll from their overseas escapades by the Club. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,2...from=public_rss Disciplinary action represents a fork in the road for all players. Its their choice how they respond. Carroll chose the wrong way and he is gone. McLean has taken the right road and he is now an effective leader and has not re offended. Maybe the Club had a quiet word in McLean's ear after the Greek holiday but after further indiscretions he got suspended by his peer from the leadership group. And hasn't he turned it around?

After plateauing for the past two years or so I am not sure where Davey as a player is at the moment. I question his temperament in big games and his explosion and performance in the 2006 elimination final was enough to suggest to me that he is not a leader in my book. Prefer others and let him concentrate on his game. FWIW, having met Beamer and spoke with him at a couple of functions I have found him personable and honest and was not aware of any reputational issues that he had. His efforts with the kids is consistent with the impressions Beamer has made with me.

Brad Green runs as straight a line as any player you have highlighted. The fact is that every player does not always train and play at their utmost. The word "should" is a cloud used by people to forgo the reality. So what your workable alternative to leadership groups Mo? Agree with that. However all punishments put forward by the leadership group would be subject to ratification by the Footy department. The ACB handles out the punishments to players (eg Simmonds) not any player leadership group.

.....and their senior star players are getting older without ready replacements coming through.

I am worried the umpires will end up crucifying both sides and ruin the spectacle!!

What do you think the media do if Ponting gave Symonds a public broadside and said he did not support certain players in or pushing for a Test? It would media salad days and Ponting would be hung for being ungratious, unprofessional and divisive. Ponting would be finished and Australian Cricket would be deeply embarrassed and shamed. Despite the whims of sports followers, the media is not the place to deal with this issue. In fact its the last place it should be. The last time I saw something handled through the media was the fallout after Australia lost to NZ in the RL World Cup. And didn't RL come up smelling roses after that! It was a PR disaster which showed much of the sport in its true colours. At the moment I suspect there is more going wrong in Symonds life than just his front foot position when batting. There is a real risk that Symonds with his career shot becomes more of a media bunny than he has been thus far. Admonishing Symonds in public is the last thing he needs. Roy is still smarting from a perceived lack of support from above over the Harbarjan monkey incident in Australia. He needs to grow up. We all agree on that. But public condemnation would be judt dumb on a number of fronts If Ponting is going to speak with him privately and offer some helpful words of advice then its a feather in Punter's and Australian cricket cap for showing maturity and some compassion.

Completely agree about Roy. Not so much as brain explosion, more the fizz from a half flat can of Solo. I now understand in the ad why the guy in the disused industrial site traded Roy in a towel for an eski full of sugar drinks. Good thinking. I think any hope of redemption for the Ashes one day would seem way off. Its ridiculous given that Australia is crying out for a Number six that can take a game by the scruff of the neck, but Symonds seems to be necking something else. Its no slur on Duminy to suggest that his start is inferior to Lara and Tendulkar. His first Test was better than Bradman's!!!! Jury is still out on Hussey and McDonald IMO. Yeah I know they are Victorian players!!!

His off field efforts that was central to the destruction of the culture at a successsful club mitigate his on field excellence. Some great players like Hird, Buckley inspire greater performances from key players. Cousins influence went the other way. A flawed champion in my opinion.

I meant Australia but forgot to include it when I mentioned with Clarke. No argument with Sachin and the Prince. Outstanding from 18 and 20 years old when they debuted at Test level. In my mind arguable two of the best batsman produced since Bradman. Sachin for technique, Lara for the flow. When on song I cant think of a better batsman that I have seen than Lara in full throttle. It would be demoralising for a bowler. Remarkably neither were successful or capable team captains during their careers.

Skills not good enough. Won an NSM medal. BOG in the toughest game of the year. Lead the North backline for many years and often played and beat opponents far bigger and heavier. HIs contribution to North as a player and a leader were profound. You underestimate him. But I can see how a player like Archer misses some the supporter praise but I know from ex players at North his toughness, poise and performance under pressure was judged as valuable as Carey. And on Carey vs Archer comparison will always unfairly punish Archer. Personal issues aside, Carey was the pre eminent footballer of the 1990s in the AFL. Brian Wilson had one great year and a few cameos afterwards. However Wilson is an enigma and his high points were dulled somewhat IMO by his lack of team orientation both on and off the ground. Sometimes when hot he could lift a side but other times you got the impression he was playing for Brian Wilson. Probably the greatest showman at playing the umpires for being hit too high around the head. However I do have happy memories of him kicking 5 in a low scoring win against the filth at VFL Park. He really got up their noses that day. Stynes was a better mobile follower than ruckman and IMO was a very good player but did not sustain the 2001 form. While achieving the consecutive games record he was admirable but sometimes the output during that period was less than it could have been. He carried (accumulated!) alot of injuries which dulled his performance in later years.

Its often referred to as football ability and skill and I agree with you that footballers have differing amounts. Wonna is still on a long education curve while coming off a good base to do so.

They dont have to directly. All player play with some level of natural instincts.Its a given. They are not robots. The issue is what actions/responses does the player exhibit through his natural instincts in a game situation (eg where and how he leads, the way he prefers to mark, what he will do with ball in different parts of the ground and what he does when he does not have the ball) . If the actions are predictable or repetitive or they highlight a weakness then a good coach will combat that in an instant.

I think we are on the same track. His lack of fitness last year which was understandable with no pre season also took its toll. And certainly the light cover he had in his early games was somewhat closer as the year went on. I would suggest this year his fitness will be tested early and if found wanting then oppositions will work him hard then run off him as he tires. Interesting to watch nevertheless.

Agree. And isnt great that at this time of year every side is "training the house down".

Why make a weak point weaker? An extra mid will not mean anything if the opposition gets a clean and uncontested tap at the ball to a waiting player. Our midfield quality is sorely tested and bumping up quantity does not solve the problem.

Given the freedom he got last year from team he really could not get any less pressure. Teams know that if they give him to much room he has the poise and balance to make the most of those opportunities. Competent oppositions will close those loop holes. Its that simple. You are expecting too much too soon from a young team if you think Wonna will get the luxury of slipping away often.

They do. But often there were times when Wonna was found on his well clear in the forward line which often reflects that his direct opponent has exploited his lack of stamina and run off him in the effort to provide a forward attack from defence. Gee do you think opposition sides read the paper and say "Hey we must watch out for him!!!"? Its not a matter of not manning up but it will often be the opportunity to exploit a young inexperienced player by gaining possessions and launching attacks for your side. BTW, the opponent you would necessarily play on Wonna would not be different whether Neitz, Miller or Robbo were playing. Truth is they play different positions. I think sides will be less ambitious with their offensive zoning in defense on him. His increased fitness should allow him if the opportunity presents itself to be more of an impact player more often. He will play FP which is very difficult position to play week in week out. He needs more than one pre season to be a contender for the midfield. Wona will be subject to more defensive pressure this year regardless.

Wona's efforts in his first season were creditable and he was rightly elevated onto the main list. However, there is no doubt that as an uplifted rookie in a bottom dwelling club he flew under many sides radar and he was not given the respect from opponents that more experienced players would normally get. He cannot expect to get the same latitude this year. Its great he has greater fitness and he needs to maintain that because he will need it if he is to continue to improve at AFL level.

. Siddle was very good but *Cough* no Johnson?

....and he is only 22yo. He has stacks of time and opportunity to make the big time. However, is JP Duminy the find of the summer? At 24yo (still very young by modern cricket standards) his performance with the bat and in the field have been astonishing in their maturity and poise. I am scratching the think of a better debut under tough competitive conditions from a player under 25? Michael Clark in India in 2005(?)???

Unless Schwab and co develop a viable business model (which is different to the past model) that allows us to become and remain a sustainable going concern then we are going to have count you out Mo. Stynes and Schwab have been good so far at rattling the can. It only get you so far and you can only do it once before the supporters/members get fractious. Now they have to show that they can run and build a profitable business.

On the money DOF Bland??? We have been in the media for all the wrong reasons in the past 2 to 3 years. I would have thought professionalism and competencies are what we have lacked more. If we are going to showcase our emerging new talent then FCS lets develop them and getting playing good football. Thats the best way to showcase them.