Rhino Richards

Captaincy is first and foremost about leadership of players. Harley has it in spades. He is very much an on field leader. Harley is nothing special in the media but he is extremely well spoken so that must be why Geelong have sponsors. Its with little surprise that you make such a ridiculous statements like that. Just highlights how off the mark you are.

And neither is Brock McLean a media performer except for getting his behaviour reported in despatches. So all you have done is complained with a plausible or viable solution. Nothing new. No one on our list has the credibility to drag sponsors in at this point. At least Schwab would realise what the issues are unlike some and seek to address them. Wrong again Mo. When I criticise its based on the facts unlike your good self.

Are the media going to bang down the door asking for interviews if your preferences for captain, Green or Bruce were appointed? I dont think so. Neither have any media charisma about them. The captaincy appintment of Junior has little to do with the sponsorship matter just a platform for you to erngage in another pointless whinge about the Club without putting up any reasonable or thoughtful alternative. There are other more tangible reasons for our sponsorship problems and those problems have existed for years prior to the current administration.

If the football department are ratifying the players decision and have established the framework by which the player vote then surely there is consistency of assessment between the players and the football department.

They didn't at all. Should the players have voted Neitz out of the captaincy last year and exactly who should have been appointed as Captain? The Club was on the record as saying the captaincy was Neitz's if he wanted it back in December/ January last year before any vote was taken. So clearly he was the Club's first choice. And again this year after McDonald and Bruce filled in for Neitz after his retirement who were realistically the other contenders? And before you say McLean, Green or others, its clear that the players did not think so. Wouldn't be just another hot air snipe at the current administration, Mo?

Full marks to Ron Barassi to stepping into such an ugly situation. The media have had a field day on this because it was Barassi. The incident is a sad reflection on things that occur every day. The attacker deserves to cop it in the Courts for the acts of assault and not for who he assaulted. However he will be tried and hung by the media because he was unlucky that RDB was the white knight in this case. i dont think think the attacker went out deliberately to bash RDB but did so in the course of his altercation. He needs to be tried without all the media noise surrounding this. Highly unlikely

Agree. His last five years with back and related injuries cruelled the best years of his career. Lyon was one of the best post 1964 players MFC produced. IMO, Flower, Fowler, Hardeman, Wells, Lyon, Alan Johnson, David Neitz are in the top echelon. Flower is the only elite player. A couple of others have gone close. For the record, while we have some great players pre 1964 and they make up the bulk of the MFC ToC, the paucity of success meant that there were few post 1964 players who measured up. Full credit to Lyon for making the side. Its just an opinion. What I consider are musts for being elite are: 1. Superior skills/talent in the role they play compared to the rest of the competition 2. Peerless and consistent performance and use of those talents to win/influence football games over many years. 3. Recognised by other Clubs and public as such in 1 and 2 and being able to produce despite attempted negation by opposition. In summary, I think they are the best at what they do and they do it consistently and for many years. Having one or two or more of such players does not walk hand in hand with premiership success. However, number of premiership medals is an indicator (to be considered with other factors) and not a determinant. Martin Pike won 4 premiership medals but certainly not elite though a capable player.

He has got it way more right than you have. We have a proven C grade midfield that has been consistently and systematically flogged week in week out for the past two years. We have senior players in the midfield who have defects in the game. We have young recruits that have potential that hopefully will need to step up. Both senior and junior players need to improve significantly over the next 2 to 3 years. And if we are to contest and win a premiership we need one or two players to become stars. And for the record....just for you Shhtack since you cant work it out yourself. Before your wires cross I am only going to state IMO why they are NQR. They may have other skills but I am not putting those in. Note: I have not referred to them as "crap" or "hacks". That's your puerile melodrama smothering any inate common sense . I am just recognising where they're at and what their deficiencies are. " Jones - Kicking, Disposal skills under pressure. I actually like Jones and believe he can improve. Davey - Lack of physical presence to win contested possessions, limited tank and flaky attitude when provoked, oppositions patently aware of pace and develop game play to mitigate it. Prefer up forward. Sylvia - Fitness concerns, focus on making the tackle not winning the contest, limited tank, lack of pace and decision making. Dunn - Question about ability to win the ball on own merit. Other than tagging yet to establish any credible midfield credentials. Buckley - Decision Making, Disposal skills. Moloney - Fitness, Decision making, lack of pace, poor defensive skills Many of the above will need to improve their standard if they are to survive at MFC (if we want to be a better and more competitive) particularly if the younger brigade develop to be better footballers than them. At this point we lack the quality of players that we will consistently allow us to win midfield contests. Compare our midfield to the top two teams and work it out. And BTW, well done on the repeated quotes in your post. You can train a monkey to do that. Its a pity its a banana thats been used to work out what they mean. And a little tip...My response to your plucked measure of 1 in 70 is that elite footballers are rare commodities in AFL football and your measure is only an indication of how many there are. Only a pedantic peanut would take it so literally as you have done. At least you have fooled the learned and wily Jack the Ripper.

Our ruck stocks are limited even when Jamar and PJ are there. And I share your concern if either is injured. I have been critical of Meesen last year (and for good reason - he was at times -way out of his depth) but I am prepared to see if he shows something this year. If not, we should look to pay him out at years end and look at other solutions (Peter Street would not be one of them). I hope Spencer comes on.

You dont have much at all pitmaster which makes your early swipe at Harris uninformed and silly. The deal may have commenced for the 2004 season but would have logically been identified and negotiated prior to that time. "Harris, a former editor-in-chief of The Age, became the fifth Melbourne chief executive in seven years when he was appointed to the job during the 2004 season." Caro Wilson Age 5 August 2008 "Harris was appointed in June 2004, signing a three-year deal " - Mark Stevens and Jon Ralph - Herald Sun 5 Feb 2008. So are you so sure the Primus deal was struck post June 2004?

Flower was used as the only example not the benchmark. He is probably one of the best footballers I have seen play. When MFC last produced a star it was certainly of the highest calibre. Wrong. Height is not the issue and Peter Street is proof of that. Peter Street is an ungainly two club player who could not cut it ar AFL level. And you think getting Peter Street would be important to making the finals this year give me a break. Given Brisbane have Charman and Leuenberger I doubt whether Peter Street was critrical to their plans. There is more to ruckwork than just the centre bounce tap. Its important but the increasing speed of the game and the growing importance of possession of the ball and proper disposal of it means that the tall immobile dinosaur with questionable skills are finished in the game. Read Peter Street. It might have slipped your attention that when we last played Freo at the MCG, Jamar 198cm nullified Sandilands at the centre bounce. Sandilands normally gets 40 to 45 hit outs a game but Jamar jumped into him at the centre bounce and prevented Sandlilands from having any impact on the game. And once Sandilands has no impact in the centre his lack of mobility around the ground stifles his game. Meesen was recruited to address our rucking problems in general not the lack of height (your fixation). I completely agree with you that Meesen has been very poor in 2008 and is coming off a low base of performance to improve in 2009. However, MFC gave up a 3rd round pick with some expectation that Meesen was raw, requiring development and I doubt whether his contract is getting big dollars. Meesen definitely needs to improve his ruckwork. If he can then his mobility and fitness could be valuable to us. There is a school of thought that given MFC's difficulty in recruiting players that MFC may not have secured him with a 2 year contract. Possibly. I am not happy with the 3 year contract but I would be significantly disappointed if we mistakenly based our ruck needs on Peter Street. BTW, I did not see that Geelong pre season game. But could it have been a coaching direction for Meesen to not be in the ruck that day and to play a follower role on the centre wing? Or are you saying that you knew what the coaching direction was to Meesen and that he deliberately disobeyed that instruction? Shhtack, I could post them 100 times and you still would not have a clue what they were. Its no wonder you will remember the NQR tag. Sheesh

Lyon was not captain in 1998 and 1999 his final years of AFL football. After 11 games in two years previous (1996 and 1997), MFC politely retired Lyon from the captaincy with Lyon requested to focus on match ready fitness. The captaincy was then awarded to Todd Viney for two years who lead courageously and great impact in the middle. At that time, MFC had either Viney and Stynes ready to take on the captaincy from Lyon. With both Neitz and JMac (if he is appointed captain) then this is clearly not the case with a natural handover or progression. Both have carried or may carry the captaincy on to the best of their abilities but at a time when the game has or is commencing to pass them by. In the perfect world Neitz should have retired from the captaincy at the end of 2006. But given the leadership vacuum then and now there is no clear leader at the moment at MFC in Neitz's wake. Hopefully this is being addressed at the Club with the likes of Watts, McLean and Grimes.

Good work Shhtack. Cracking bit of melodrama without any content. Ripping stuff. Now dont give yourself a headache. I'll remember not to try anything too sharp for you next time. Its a deal. And dont bump the thread in future years Shhtack you just might even realise the amount of floss you have written and how little you actually comprehended back then.

I'll say it again. His height aint his major problem. Whether he is 198,200,201cm means diddlysquat against Sandilands if he is not up to it like he showed this year. Or should we get Peter Street (211cm) for next year?

Push up into the midfield from where???? Because I know Shhtack you're smart enough to work it out. Try work to this formula....Take out McLean and those players who have had less than 3 years or more on the list. Got the thinking cap on. Brilliant deduction Shhtack. Its not many. Go and re-read where I have said that stars need to be consistently superior over a number of years. Thanks for confirming a perception. We may indeed. But your premise that the quantity of midfielders will lead to quality players is not necessarily the case. BTW, I never tried to convince you of that

His height is not the problem. He is listed on the MFC website as 200cm. PJ is listed as 199cm. Jamar is 198cm. His performance last year in the VFL was disappointing to say the least. He has two years to turn it around. Lets see what he can do.

When the bell tolls the end of a career in sport it rarely gives warning of its impending call. This is exactly the case with David Neitz (and Hayden and Lee for that matter too). Neitz was finished early in 2007 and while admiring his club first attitude, it was a sign of the general malaise of leadership and performance at the Club that he continued into 2008. He was a shadow of his former self and it was embarrassing how stark his decent had become .Its was a sad ending for a club champion to look so broken and beaten on the field. I hope its not the same for Junior. injury aside Junior will be in our starting 22 first round. I am not sure despite his best and bravest efforts he will be there at seasons end. In fact there might have been warning signs when Neitz broke down with injury in early 2004 and 2005 and he went out on one leg and did not inspire a win for the Club. The unfortunate (and sometimes admirable) feature of sportsman is in the efforts to get the best out of themselves are often the last to realise that the game has slipped by them. While they might inspire younger players around the Club off the ground they clearly struggle to make a contribution on the ground. Players in the twilight who struggle or fail to justify through their performance on the field are not good pension plans for a Club. They are more reflective of the shortcomings of the Club in trying to squeeze that extra ounce of performance which clearly is not there. The playing list and leadership group should be developed to push and strive in terms of playing performance and leadership to be the best they can. I have not like the position at MFC that leadership seems to be only capable in the hands of too few. I want tomorrows leaders to be better than the leaders we have now and to be more abundant and for each player to see it and take on the mantle themselves to be part of that leadership culture through the roles they play. Unfortunately that has not always been evidence with our senior players (some present and recently retired)

No doubt about that one. I would have added Farmer as well during his time at MFC. Could be devastating at times in playing one of the most difficult positions on the field. However post MFC, other issues in his life deteriorated his brilliance and and he finished a nasty, angry player who tarnished what should could have been a really impressive career.

Junior has been a wonderful and tireless servant of the Club and does not get all the accolades he should have got over the course of his career. However, Junior is not the player he once was. He really struggled last year despite his best and tireless efforts. If MFC had a better performing midfield and a more robust leadership group, then I doubt whether Junior would have been re signed for another year. The fact is we dont have ATM better options in the midfield than Junior in his twilight and the Footy Dept's respect of his leadership skills also highlights their concern about the brittleness and hardness of the midfield. Junior will give his all this year but I am concern that the pace of the game that challenged him so much last year will challenge him further this year. I would expect to see a changing of the guard in leadership and midfield personnel over the course of 2009. Given the chronic culture problem with leadership at the Club I would have thought the captaincy position and the leadership to be very important aspects of fostering the leadership environment that creates and sustains successful clubs.

Exactly right about Todd and Scott Thompson. Loved Viney as a hardworking strong and solid footballer but he was not a star. Consistency at a high level is very important to be a star. MFC have seen players who have flashes or stanzas of top football but they do not maintain that standard over a sustained period of their career (eg like a Buckley, Hird or Voss) I am with you about wanting to have Thompson and Sewell at MFC.

Circa 2004....not even close. He played 12 very good games in 2004 and was emerging but his best football has been at the Crows.

Watts is 17 and 195cm and still growing. If he lives up to his potential then he should be good enough to play anywhere. However at 195+cm and athletic I think he is more than likely to make it KPP forward or even back. And hyperbolic comparisons to the game greats like Hird are designed to excite the linear minded. Oh and if he is "Hird like", then he certainly wont be corralled to the midfield I would not dare Shhtack and is it likely to upset your quantity list! Wrong again Shtack. Go and re-read.....slowly All those players were possibly in the top bracket of players we have produced in the past 15 years but all have their limitations and none despite the fondness of MFC supporters to overstate their careers are or were A grade stars. At best they were B graders. And even at their best, MFC continually feel short in in the finals. And your inclusion of TJ in that bracket only highlights my point. The guy had loads of talent but did not deliver on it consistently. IMO for a No1 pick he has woefully underperformed expectations at two clubs now. Every Club has had very good players and had competitive sides. I think MFC would be the only club that in the past 20 years has not produced at least bona fide star and our mediocre results as a Club only re inforces that point. Or from another perspective, name a premiership side over the past 15 years that has not had at least one real star player to cap off a solid list of capable players. I would re read the quoted section again and then considered that against what you thought I was saying. That's what I am saying, that is! Well done Shhhtack. You gone front and centre to attack my view without having the courtesy or common sense to actually understand what it is. A surprise. Just re-read posts#70 and 72 on this thread....slowly.

Their is very little of the core group left from the end of 2006. MFC have turned over more than 1/2 its senior list in that time and has moved on a number of "big" or established names in that time. Its miles different now and what our core group is will be much different at the end of 2009 to the start of 2009. The improvement is not going to come from our senior players of which there are few left and many are coming to the end of their careers. Their contributions are required but I know what they can give and it will only carry us so far.Its not enough. I am looking at the prospect of many of the younger group to finally step and make a mark for themselves. For starters, Sylvia, McLean, Bate and Dunn plus a couple of the later group rising to the occassion. Oh and no injuries would really help too.

That's it in a nutshell IMO.

I think with a new coach and a clean out of senior NQR, a long list of pre season injuries and I think we were realistically gone before the ball was bounced. White yes, Yze was gone years before that. I think thats right but if the improvement is there then they wont hold it back.