Unless you have the skill to defeat your opponent in a contested ball situation and hurt the opposition with the use of the ball by hand or foot all the rest is secondary. You are glowing about the minor side condiments without knowing what is actually on the plate. Players like Hall have presence because of the way they win the ball and use the ball. They are hard at the contest and the ball.

Look i agree with you about winning contested footy, hitting targets and the rest - but the minor side condiments are important in champion sides - intimidation, presence, basically being in your opponents head when THEY have to go stick their head over the ball can effect a game, to argue otherwise is ridicolous!

Sorry I find shirtfronts where you hit a player when they are not looking not tough but gutless. The AFL have recognised it and have outlawed them.

Wrong. The AFL havent outlawed shirtfronts executed properly - players are expected to be aware within vicinity of the ball. Read the rules. Check the Xavier Clarke / Kosi incidents. Whelan/Ball i could name countless others do you have any idea?

Its a pity Pickett had to soil a reputation as a very good footballer, excellent in close and good tackler with some of the nastiest and gutless hits on players I have seen.

Laughable, he built his reputation on those hits - he intimidated, he was a very good footballer, those "minor side condiments" were major parts of his game - and used efficiently by the coaches that won premierships with him in their side.

Quoting Dermott Brereton on what is appropriate on a footballer is like asking Chopper Read on how to run social welfare centre. No wonder Dermie thinks its an art. He is living in the 1980s and his mindset has not moved on. No wonder Hawthorn pushed him out after advising Vandenburg & Co to draw a line in the sand some years ago.

Hahaha yeah Dermies living in the 80's The Hawks players are living in the 80's too

The Hawks will be revisting the 80's with a flag sometime soon - they intimidate, they did it to us in rnd 1 - they zone off and OWN a space of the ground. They hit hard to force turnovers then score rebounding.

Clarkson instructs his players to play on the edge, is he in the 80's too Rhino?? Or a current day AFL coach with an undefeated list??

Pickett got those medals and accolades for playing the ball hard not the man. The only thing killed Pickett as footballer was Pickett. He would be happy with his MFC years. He slacked it and got $300k per year. And you are pretty chuffed with it too.

When are you going to realise that men get in the way of the ball. its OK to run through them to get to it. thats football.

You'd have the player tiptoe around him so he doesnt get hurt

BTW, Miller wears No 7 and rarely plays out of FF. Guy cant get a touch in the F50. Cant win a contest. Works his butt off but you are right he aint a KPP. How does he "pwotect" the little players when he is suspended?

How often did Neitz get suspended doing it?, opposition knew they wouldnt get away with it. Millers our biggest bloke, and i dont want him running in throwing haymakers, but if a Morton or even Davey got absoloutly cleaned up unfairly - imho hes a leader he needs to be in there and making the opposition know it isnt acceptable to snipe the Demons. Sometimes a statement needs to be made, like Halls hit on Staker.. [censored] weak reaction from the Eagles players really.

Players dont play for the coach or the game plan or even the [censored] jumper or the money when they are playing well its because they are playing for each other! knowing your teammates will "goto war" with you and for you, should it be needed is essential and not just a minor condiment of an intangible toughness.

Whelan's hit on Ball was neither here nor there as it did little for the team on the day and given Whelan had only 4 touches for the game I guess you would call that "presence". It worked well and scared the [censored] out of the opposition who won 13.15 to 9.8 (and 3 of those goals were in junk time in the last quarter). In fact the hit only temporarily incapacitated Ball and took the wind out of Whelan. Bravo.

Again more rubbish, he had an oppurtunity to hurt one of their best onballers within the rules of the game - it was GREAT. He did the right thing that any coach would be happy with except your fair play everyone fantasty world.

Temporarily incapacitated Ball he came back on but he was not at 100%, and in fact missed the next 2-3 weeks from the force of the hit. To suggest Whelans hit on Ball was a reason we lost that game is seriously dumb. And Whelan plays with presence every week, and that hit is one of those reasons, you think other AFL players dont see matches they arent directly involved in? or big hits? its called perceived pressure mate, Pickett had it.. not because of his great hard ball winning ability, players were scared!

Great teams develop it, the Lions as a group had an aura of perceived pressure from a reputation that was in their opponents heads before the ball even bounced, they didnt do that by dancing and pirouting and taking the occasional speccy they hit bodies.. or were they in the 80's too?

BTW, Miller wears No 7 and rarely plays out of FF. Guy cant get a touch in the F50. Cant win a contest. Works his butt off but you are right he aint a KPP. How does he "pwotect" the little players when he is suspended?

Best game I've seen from Miller was against the Saints at the 'G maybe 3 years ago, he roamed from the wing through half forward and was given space. He was one-on-one and beat several opponents through strong gutsy marks and run. He obviously enjoyed the space to roam and play his natural game, he's good enough man on man under those conditions.

Look i agree with you about winning contested footy, hitting targets and the rest...

You did well up to there. No Honestly you did.

Unless you are winning the contested ball and doing all those things the "tough" stuff you cherish means sweet f all. If you are just "tough" and not doing those things you end up no better than Andy Goodwin.

I know you dont understand how the game has changed. The room to physically hit a player in the course of the play has narrowed significantly and such hits must happen so close to the ball and even then the level of protection to players against heroes charging or playing the man has increased. So have the penalties for repeat offences. The changes have happened over the past 15 years but the tolerance for such hits by the tribunal and the AFL is far less. You dont understand that. Many of the physical acts of the Hawks of the 1980s would be subject to the match review panel today. Clarkson has his players hard at the ball. His sides contains players who dont know (like yourself) when the line is crossed. And they have been suspended. And they wont be winning premierships with their best players suspended like Hodge etc. And they will only win a premiership if they play better contested football than other sides not by shirtfronts.

My comment on Whelan was in relation to his 4 touches on the day and he is a hero in your eyes. What a [censored]! Thanks for misrepresenting my point of view but it seems to go with the territory. The lack of possessions the sort of thing that loses games. His hit on Ball was wreckless and inconsequential to the game despite you getting your rocks off. And regardless of which Club they play forward if the ball winning stars of the AFL are subject to that sort of unprotected hits then the game is lesser for it and the AFL knows it and is clamping down it.

You cherish the inconsequential and miss what actually makes great sides great and its no wonder you rate Miller with Hall and think back to back premierships are a fluke.

I know you're talking about Bell but, honestly, those sentences vould apply to half our team (only half?). He's a back flanker Daniel Bell - courageous, selfless, athletic, quick, a decent kick, and good value for the position he plays.

Some have said we should try him in the midfield, which I cannot see for the reasons you mentioned - indecisive, poor peripheral vision, makes bad decisions.

However, for a back flanker he is a good player who is apart of a backline that at the moment is seeing more action than the Western Front. They are battling away back there, with the huge workload and their own confidence issues.

Our midfield sometimes gets away with alot from us and these players should get the blame, not our backmen: Green, Bruce, McLean, Jones, McDonald, Moloney, Batram, White, and Jamar. They are the ones that allow an average of 62 inside 50s.

62!! The AFL median is around 48.

(Agian with the stats, I know. But some stats see into the truth of things.)

While it may not suprise you, it at the very least, should alarm you.

Can't agree rp... I can't recall him actually beating his direct opposition... He is always trailing and can very rarely get a fist in to spoil even with his so called pace. Understand the ball is coming in often and with awesome precision but you have to be able to beat your opponent on the day. The being caught from behind is 6 of one half a dozen of the other. Not enough awareness but also not enough talk/blocking from team mates to allow him time and space (even though he had time and space both times he has been run down on the last two weeks).

I guess I just think he is ineffective.

Can't agree rp... I can't recall him actually beating his direct opposition... He is always trailing and can very rarely get a fist in to spoil even with his so called pace. Understand the ball is coming in often and with awesome precision but you have to be able to beat your opponent on the day. The being caught from behind is 6 of one half a dozen of the other. Not enough awareness but also not enough talk/blocking from team mates to allow him time and space (even though he had time and space both times he has been run down on the last two weeks).

I guess I just think he is ineffective.

Our backmen look awful, but I would reserve judgement on them until we get their workload down. Because you can't exactly say anyone isn't worthy of a spot in a backline to attack a flag because they flounder with 60+ inside 50s, no team that is a chance to wina flag wouldn't have so many.

Basically, we're frustrated and rushing to judgement on everyone. Done it myself with Garland, so let's just keep our heads a little.

Our backmen look awful, but I would reserve judgement on them until we get their workload down. Because you can't exactly say anyone isn't worthy of a spot in a backline to attack a flag because they flounder with 60+ inside 50s, no team that is a chance to wina flag wouldn't have so many.

Basically, we're frustrated and rushing to judgement on everyone. Done it myself with Garland, so let's just keep our heads a little.

I can see what you're selling but I'm not buying I'm afraid. Been waiting for him to come on for a few years and he seems to have flattened out. You either have it our you do not, even in a bad side you can see some players have it and some do not. He is a not in my mind but that is not to say my mind has any idea.

No they are actually pretty good.

Can't believe you could possibly think you can begin to compare Miller with Hall. Hall is a footballer. Miller is not. Hall knows how to read the play, where to go to get the ball, how to look up and see better options and kick to them. Has become an outstanding kick for goal, especially under pressure, is one of the best in the league at taking contested possessions. Has an engine that very few opponents can match. Miller is just a big worry. No football smarts. He's been given more than a fair opportunity to develop them and he hasn't and won't. Bailey gave him the benefit of the doubt for this season, but he must realise that he has none of Halls ability and is taking the place of others who are footballers. Lynden Dunne, Bate, Newton.

Buckley is learning how to hit targets.

I suggest Buckley was dropped because he wasn't working hard enough when he didn't have the ball, not because of his disposal efficiency.

Of all the crappy threads I've read from misinformed and deluded supporters this is the worst.

Well, the changes for Round 7 are a joke.

NOTHING has been done.

Bailey blatantly lied to us.

Another week of watching the same [censored] run around. I will not be attending the game.

There are changes, but they are subtle. Have a look, green, jones and miller named as forwards for a start bruce on the ball (interesting since many consider him a "negating" player), and the inclusion of 4 players (whelan, Garland, Buckly Bate) who all have a definate shot at playing this week.

while i admit these arn't the massive turnover some envisaged and that positions posted before a match arguably mean nothing, it looks as if bailey is trying to restructure our forward line, which admitedly is a considerable weakness in our team.

Make no mistake Bailey is experimenting, and i for one don'y mind it.

oh and by the way Yze_Magic regarding your coment about not attending another game; go f*** yourself.

There are changes, but they are subtle. Have a look, green, jones and miller named as forwards for a start bruce on the ball (interesting since many consider him a "negating" player), and the inclusion of 4 players (whelan, Garland, Buckly Bate) who all have a definate shot at playing this week.

while i admit these arn't the massive turnover some envisaged and that positions posted before a match arguably mean nothing, it looks as if bailey is trying to restructure our forward line, which admitedly is a considerable weakness in our team.

Make no mistake Bailey is experimenting, and i for one don'y mind it.

oh and by the way Yze_Magic regarding your coment about not attending another game; go f*** yourself.

LOL

The positional changes are nothing. NOTHING. That is not a statement. Throwing a few names around in the Thusrday night team.

We are 16th with a percenteage of 50. We have won ZeRO games.

And look at the changes!!!!!!!!!! I have never been more [censored] off at the MFC in my life as a supporter

And damn right I wont be going to the game. At least I have the guts to admit it,

Well, the changes for Round 7 are a joke.

NOTHING has been done.

Bailey blatantly lied to us.

Another week of watching the same [censored] run around. I will not be attending the game.

Well, he doesn't have much to work with does he? Wholesale changes will simply make Sunday's hiding worse. But then, what have we the supporters got to look forward to on Sunday at the 'G? Be nice to see some new blood, some new ideas from the coaching staff.

Even some idea of what 'the plan' is in Bailey's mind.

I'll be there but I'm dreading the day..

Well, he doesn't have much to work with does he? Wholesale changes will simply make Sunday's hiding worse. But then, what have we the supporters got to look forward to on Sunday at the 'G? Be nice to see some new blood, some new ideas from the coaching staff.

Even some idea of what 'the plan' is in Bailey's mind.

I'll be there but I'm dreading the day..

Mate, what would you rather see?

The same old predictable Russell Robertson spending half the game on the ground after another missed speccy.

OR

A fresh faced freak named Adaam maric who will take the Dockers by surprise and kick 4 or 5.

Changes should have been made. REAL changes.

Well, the changes for Round 7 are a joke.

NOTHING has been done.

Bailey blatantly lied to us.

Another week of watching the same [censored] run around. I will not be attending the game.

My guess, something may happen after the Hi-Ho Freo game. Hears hoping.

Yz' & Neita & whoever else will no doubt get a send off.

Mate, what would you rather see?

The same old predictable Russell Robertson spending half the game on the ground after another missed speccy.

OR

A fresh faced freak named Adaam maric who will take the Dockers by surprise and kick 4 or 5.

Changes should have been made. REAL changes.

Maric. You are right that there's a limit to how long this can and should be allowed to go on. You say Bailey said 6 weeks, he should have stuck to it. I'm disappointed in the arrogant elitist attitude by the club and coaching staff towards supporters. We need something to grab onto by this stage. Bailey simply giving his upbeat platitudes week after week of more training and needing to be competitive for longer gives us nothing. No insights into his Big Plan, and little hope that he is the man to turn this disastrous start around even given several years.

Maric. You are right that there's a limit to how long this can and should be allowed to go on. You say Bailey said 6 weeks, he should have stuck to it. I'm disappointed in the arrogant elitist attitude by the club and coaching staff towards supporters. We need something to grab onto by this stage. Bailey simply giving his upbeat platitudes week after week of more training and needing to be competitive for longer gives us nothing. No insights into his Big Plan, and little hope that he is the man to turn this disastrous start around even given several years.

thats correct

And Robertson has been appalling all year.

But hes not the only one.