Only the most optimistic or delusional would feel we are anything but toast for season 2007.

On that basis can be start thinking in terms of 2008 ..and start developing anyone that needs game time.

or do the purists stil waant to persevere with a Quixote like tilt at the windmill ??

I agree belzebub, winning or losing is now irrelevant, building for the next couple of years is the only think we should be concentrating on.

While it is irrelevant re finals, I find hard to see how it develops young players confidence and belief in their ability if they are struggling to succeed in losing sides. We need to get consistently competitive and winning to at least allow the young players in the team to have a decent chance to flourish and not flounder.

I wonder how we will rebound (if at all) against Adelaide.

there are some ...who whilst possibly hving given wel over the years...simply wont figure in next years side. we simply have to realise this and where possible blood the kids. yes they may come totally unstuckon occasions. but nothing replaces experience. They can only get it one way. This will build confidence and maturity. Even if they are smashed on some days its all part of the learning curve.

If they dont show the stuff, then we will know and thats also part of the deal for the club.

You can only build from the standpoint of knowlwdge. Well lets see what they know.

There is only one way forward. There is not much lower to go.

There is a nucleus of a very good team in there somwhere. Im actually quite optimistic going forward. But it wont happen overnight, nor with the current brand of shampoo if you get my drift.. but thats another matter.

oh good logic Rhinoi...lets string together 10 wins.. an then play the kids.... mate what options do we really have ? Foget about pie in the sky stuff...look at what is actually happening.

The facts remain that even after everything that has happened over the last couple of years we still don't have anyone who has played who is capable of replacing Neitz, and considering his age that's a major concern.

I think this process is already happening.

Players like Weetra, Newton Buckley and Garland are still to go.

Typically its players like Brown, Bizz and Ward that will go at year end.

I would say only Buckley is a direct swap for any of those. However his Sandy form has moderate recently and I think he needs to get it right there.

Miller should go but I dont think Newton is a CHF but another good performance should see him playing after the half way mark.

oh good logic Rhinoi...lets string together 10 wins.. an then play the kids.... mate what options do we really have ? Foget about pie in the sky stuff...look at what is actually happening.

Its ironic you ask that question.

You dwell on disaster with any concrete steps to move forward and ridicule the rationale.

I said nothing about 10 wins.

MFC have already played a number of first year players today and they play better in a competitive unit. Performance and beating like the WCE game does nothing for anyone's confidence let alone young players.

There is a real risk that the player do drop their bundles and we start coping floggings week in week out. How positive is that for a young player?

You might care to address the other issues I raised.

The facts remain that even after everything that has happened over the last couple of years we still don't have anyone who has played who is capable of replacing Neitz, and considering his age that's a major concern.

Agree with that.

This is more an issue of the success of recruiting replacements than blooding players.

Lets see, Smith, Miller, Molan and Breese have all been recruited in recent years and fizzed. He's not easy to replace.

All the more reason to make sure we get it right with the young forward talent we have.

Miller should go but I dont think Newton is a CHF .........................

Couldn't be any worse could he?

Unfortuantly for the club, losing means more fans drop off. It's the sad truth but Melbourne fan's are like that. We may not be on this board, but most are. If we keep losing, the lower the crowds and the less money. This team can't afford to start building for 08 now; literally.

The season is over. Plan for next season. The only good thing is that we should get a good draft pick. Maybe we can get a good big man to replace White in the next few years.

Couldn't be any worse could he?

On the face of it you are right.

However, I cant see a player like Newton getting much benefit playing CHF from a side that kick 4 goals in 3 quarters against an fairly ordinary opposition by implemented a stilted and error ridden brand of football.

On the face of it you are right.

However, I cant see a player like Newton getting much benefit playing CHF from a side that kick 4 goals in 3 quarters against an fairly ordinary opposition by implemented a stilted and error ridden brand of football.

The main query on Newton is whether he can learn anything more while playing with Sandy for another half a season or whether a run at the top level will benefit him more. It's not an easy decision and there are definitely pro's and con's either way.

There are other concerns with the list, and we do have a chance to go a long way to resolving those issues this year.

Forgot to add something about Newton, I'd really love for him to get the opportunity to play alongside Neitz so he can get a front row view of how a top forward plays, I really think he'd benefit from it more than playing with Sautner at Sandringham.

We've used 36 players this year - not sure there is much point to continual changing and apart from Newton who else is ready to play - we need to pick the best 22 available each week

The main query on Newton is whether he can learn anything more while playing with Sandy for another half a season or whether a run at the top level will benefit him more. It's not an easy decision and there are definitely pro's and con's either way.

There are other concerns with the list, and we do have a chance to go a long way to resolving those issues this year.

People forget that he has only played half a season with Sandy VFL firsts and that he has only started to hits his straps in bursts in the past four weeks.

As a young footballer with a fair degree development of his maturity to complement his position I believe that given where the year the Club need to persist with is development program.

I have no doubt barring fitness, form or suspension, Neitz and Newton will play together.

Most of spoken of list crisis but I think the core of the team 5 years or less is good and most of the deadwood will be roll off the list in the next year or two.

As Elmag points out....we have played 36 players off the list this year and subject to fitness I would have expected a number 1 to 3 years players being in the MFC team now.

I am not sure what else is to be done from the list at this point aside what I have said previously.

what can be done ?

thats the question isnt it.

what are the options.

yes 36 have played so far.. but in what context..as stop gaps for the walking wounded or as aprt of a composite amongst themselves. Its the former.

Ther are at least half a dozen who will either not be at Melbourne or not feature in any ongoing way next year.

we could form a team around the nucleus of the 'known identities' plus the likely starters for next year, topingup with the "to be discontinueds" to get through the year.

there is no point as such in playing the so called best 22 each week. well for starters ..who are they? what have they achieved so far..its they who have gotten us here, they and the coach. This suggests the so called best 22 are simply not the right 22.

we need to start build ing the NEXT best 22. Hopefully a band of brothers who may take us further. this wiil include some bit not all of the most likely starters from any list most anyone will assemble at present but tempered byany qualification of them going forward. example. Biz played well today. he wont be here next year. why use him on day in day out basis going forward at expense of experience of others. same for Dutchy, Ward etc.

Its time to get ruthless. You could posibly win with some form ( reversal) maybe 6 or 7 for rest of season by using the very best...but its a short term gain at the expense of next year.

But here we have a divide. There are two basic schools of thought here. Some think we outght to look way forward into the neeeds of next year and beyond and start now and those that see the best method as steadying the Titanic..and and taking each iceberg one week at a time!!

Or can someone educate me as to what exactly decribes the "right" time to do all this, if not now ?

However, I cant see a player like Newton getting much benefit playing CHF from a side that kick 4 goals in 3 quarters against an fairly ordinary opposition by implemented a stilted and error ridden brand of football.

And how many forwards, whether they be good, bad or ugly, actually benefit from that?

Petterd, Bate, Dunn, Jones, McLean, P Johnson, C Johnson, Frawley, Warnock, Jamar and Syvlia are all developing players who have played this year. Add to that Bell who is getting better and better every week, and Miller has been far better this year than last (but still struggling at this level IMO).

The MFC can blood a few more kids like Newton, Weetra, Garland and Buckley, but at the expense of who? P Johnson has come on leaps and bounds by playing AFL football, but the MFC can play a team of kids and expect to be even competitive and if they are not it will not be protective.

guyz, let face it. our defence has always been our weakeness.

our midfield is fine. we have future 10 year midfielders in mclean, jones and bartram. we have flankers who could become midfielders in years to come in sylvia, bell, bate, dunn and buckley. we have strong experienced players in green, bruce, johnstone, moloney, mcdonald.

our forward line remains potent. neitz, robbo, dunn, newton and miller remain a strong contingent of forwards, along with davey, yze, bate, green, sylvia and others moving through.

our problem is that we have too many mediocre/incapable defenders in our team at the moment. guyz that shouldn't be playing afl, or who are so old they won't be in 2 years...they include ferguson, holland, wheatley, ward, brown and bizzel...

therefore, seeing as our season if shot, we should play a solid back 6 every game, so that they can gain experience together as a unit. this is extremely important for a defence.

Whelan, Carrol, Frawley

Pettard, Rivers, Bell

with Bartram and C.Johnson given shots at flanker roles as well and warnock given a go in the key post...

this is our defence of the future. they will not succeed unless they are given time to gell together as a unit. we will be a better team if we do this, because by seasons end:

carrol will have around 65 games experience

Whelan more than 100

Rivers around 60

bell around 40

and pettard and Frawley almost 20...

as a unit they can move forward together. if we do not do this then we will come into next season without brown,ward,bizzel,ferguson and wheatley and these boys will have no experience and another season will be wasted!

I dont mind that back six... probably a few others as you say that can come in and out. The benfit is we can start to see if they gel ? if not rejig it. One of the most importnat aspects of a team play scenario is knowing what your mates willdo...where they will be ...how they play. ( and this has only a partial influence by team orders , as the indiviuals will interpret). The more they play, the more they know and can trust. These are the building blocks of that ellsuive element ( to us ) CONFIDENCE

I'll be very happy if we just win against Carlton twice, Collingwood twice and Richmond.

I'll be very happy if we just win against Carlton twice, Collingwood twice and Richmond.

And we should beat the Roos next time round; it's only about 6 or 7 weeks away.

We have to look at 2008 now.

Defenders such as Bizzell, Ward, Brown have to make way for the likes of Frawley, C Johnson, Warnock etc.

These players need game time and experience, so by the time the end of the season arrives theve got a few games under their belt. Then they can focus on having a big pre-season and hit the ground running in 2008.

Apologies to Bizz ( He was good yesterday ) but if we are going to improve, its going to come from the young players.