brad has been very good of late he just needs to learn how to bloody kick and take a mark above his head

What Miller does well can be performed by a number of other players. Leading, marking out in front, dishing off, etc. Someone like Bate can do that as can Sylvia. Miller might be 6"4 but he plays CHF like a tall flanker.

The term these days seems to be power forward. Every side needs them. Neitz is a true power forward. I don't know whether Miller will ever be one. A power forward needs to be able to take contested marks, be strong one-on-one and importantly bang the ball through the sticks when given the chance. Miller is lacking in these areas.

So if he assumes the role of lead-up presenting forward, then he's effectively competing with guys like Bate and Sylvia. They both mark as well as Miller, but importantly they have more footy nous as forwards and are much better kicks so that when they get the ball they hurt the opposition. What's the use in Miller taking marks 50m out when he can't make the distance? At least the other two can thump it home from there.

The only area I see Miller as being superior is in work rate. He does work bloody hard (often unrewarded) and never stops presenting.

Given Sylvia and Bate have more flexibility and versatility, I can't help but feel that we would be better served with another runner or trying to find another power forward than having Miller in the side. I like the bloke but he has significant limitations that restrict his effectiveness as a forward.

im sorry but when apples leads i expect him to mark the ball, not let the ball bounce infront of him therefore giving his opposition the chance to get the ball and kick it back to their goal square, which i say happens alot of the time with apples. and when he does mark the ball around the fifty i would much rather he stop and think about what he wants to do with the ball rather than pass it to a running player who most of time runs into trouble and theres never anyone near enough to help out. apples should be able to at leats attempt to kick a goal from 50 metres, if he cant then hes in the wrong position.

and this shouldnt be a question about how many of us have played chf, what kind of question is that to ask a female, or yet an elderly person whose been supporting the demons for years, thats like saying if youve not played that position whats the point of supporting a team, were supporters we have opinions and watch game after game as most of our players dont do what is expected of their position.

have you ever tried my job, no and i bet you wouldnt want to either otherwise youd be like those whinging who cover me when im on leave.

get your facts right next time you see miller go for a mark take a look around.

one on one he is great over head just look at the game with freo last year.

he should be at chf and keeped their .

you say he does not kick to many goals well yes you are right.

but how can you kick goals when you hand pass all the time.

he is not the main forward and he nos that and maybe thats why if he does kick its to neitz or robbo.

have a look at how many times he has passed of to those to.

dont get me wrong robbo is the guy that gets me thought the gates every week.

its a team game and the team 8 out of 10 times will try to pass to neitz or robbo.

which shits me becouse we are one of the best teams at shot for goal out side 50.

most of the midfeild can kick on the run out side the 50.

but like l said they will try for neitz and robbo.

we could have won bye now if they belived this them self and started the midfeild having shots out side the 50

if you dont belive me mike sheanne wrote this in the sun last year after we beat the magpies

so lets keep millier and everything and start playing like we no the demons can .

one on one he is great over head just look at the game with freo last year.

we could have won bye now if they belived this them self and started the midfeild having shots out side the 50

if you dont belive me mike sheanne wrote this in the sun last year after we beat the magpies

why are you talking about last year games, this is a new year, new injuries, new players, new supporters, same umpires, players who have been there a few years should know better by now and have confidence in themselves, and one good game doesnt maketh a player.

well their is not much to talk about this year

  marfa said:

one on one he is great over head just look at the game with freo last year.

we could have won bye now if they belived this them self and started the midfeild having shots out side the 50

if you dont belive me mike sheanne wrote this in the sun last year after we beat the magpies

why are you talking about last year games, this is a new year, new injuries, new players, new supporters, same umpires, players who have been there a few years should know better by now and have confidence in themselves, and one good game doesnt maketh a player.

  The Chook Factor said:

Thats a little silly, your saying that he has that little impact in the forward line that he is told to lead up towards the wings??? Yet these seem to be his directions everyweek??? Yet he does this everyweek and doesnt get dropped?? So he has so little impact everyweek yet doesnt get dropped?? Im confused. I reakon the FD think he is doing a good job and doing the job that he is assigned to do or shorly after 3-4 years of this he would have been both dropped and delisted. dont you think??

Chook I was only conceding on your original point that he might be instructed to play that way. Hell what other way can he play? At the stage I think MFC are giving Miller every opportunity to prove himself. He has not done it my opinion despite his work rate being very high.

I think Scoop nailed it by saying he is really a 6 foot 4 four flanker and his spot could be played by Dunn, Sylvia and Bate. He is not a power forward with the attributes that go with that no matter how much Miller's supporters wish it to be. As one of those develop I cant see Miller holding his spot as it will be done more competently and skilfully by one of the other players.

That's why I have argued that his limitations leave him as a potential negating backman and not a KP forward he will never be.

  The Paul Gardiner Squad said:

Two winnable games last week and yesterday.

Brad Millers contribution - 9 possessions, 4 kicks and 5 handballs, third lowest in the team ahead of Neita and warnock.

Wer'e playing with 17 on the field, and the FD needs to face reality.

Times up.

Come on in. No.7

Have you considered this in your statistical analysis?

WESTERN BULLDOGS 4.1 10.5 12.12 16.16 (112)

MELBOURNE 6.1 7.6 10.9 16.10 (106)

GOALS Western Bulldogs: Johnson 4, Hahn 2, Higgins 2, Cross, Gilbee, Eagleton, Giansiracusa, Darcy, Cooney, Akermanis, Hargrave. Melbourne: Sylvia 3, Davey 3, Yze 2, Green 2, Bate, Neitz, Dunn, Johnstone, Bell, White.

BEST Western Bulldogs: Johnson, Cross, Eagleton, Gilbee, Harris, Giansiracusa. Melbourne: Davey, Johnstone, Sylvia, White, Bruce, Yze.

INJURIES Melbourne: Miller (ankle), Carroll (concussion). Rivers (back) replaced in selected side by Holland.

UMPIRES: McLaren, Sully, Head.

  Demonland said:

Have you considered this in your statistical analysis?

WESTERN BULLDOGS 4.1 10.5 12.12 16.16 (112)

MELBOURNE 6.1 7.6 10.9 16.10 (106)

GOALS Western Bulldogs: Johnson 4, Hahn 2, Higgins 2, Cross, Gilbee, Eagleton, Giansiracusa, Darcy, Cooney, Akermanis, Hargrave. Melbourne: Sylvia 3, Davey 3, Yze 2, Green 2, Bate, Neitz, Dunn, Johnstone, Bell, White.

BEST Western Bulldogs: Johnson, Cross, Eagleton, Gilbee, Harris, Giansiracusa. Melbourne: Davey, Johnstone, Sylvia, White, Bruce, Yze.

INJURIES Melbourne: Miller (ankle), Carroll (concussion). Rivers (back) replaced in selected side by Holland.

UMPIRES: McLaren, Sully, Head.

Miller wasn't playing very well before he got injured.

has anyone noticed that miller looks a lot more comfortable, and kicks more goals in games when neitz isnt playing? miller assumes a different role when neitz isnt there, playing closer to goal, and looks a lot better.

in response to anyone who says miller is not a natural forward we should play him back, you're joking. he has no natural defencive ability at all. he chases a player and watches them kick. his body on body isnt strong enough to win contests. he plays forward not back. my interest is that he has a good motor, can run hard. could he be a crash and bash body in the midfield?

  deanox said:

....

in response to anyone who says miller is not a natural forward we should play him back, you're joking. he has no natural defencive ability at all. he chases a player and watches them kick. his body on body isnt strong enough to win contests.

As a forward especially a CHF, I would have thought those weakness condemn as useless up forward. It easier to play defense and stop your opponent than create the play particularly under pressure. So if he has no defensive ability then he is a cooked goose up forward.

And by suggesting that he plays a "crash and bash" midfielder are you conceding he cant make it up forward.

Miller is flaky below his knees and does not win contested situations so I cant see him in the midfield mix.

BTW, what good is a crash and bash midifielder that does not get the ball? The only thing he gets is reported.

The last one we had Phil Read was a disaster.

Another loss another bash a player; this week instead of Bruce its Miller, suprise suprise

  On the Demon bandwagon said:

Another loss another bash a player; this week instead of Bruce its Miller, suprise suprise

I think many people have formed / had this opinion for some time.

This, IMHO, is not a 'knee-jerk' reaction to a loss, or to our poor season. Rather, it is a constructive discussion about how we can improve our team in the long-run (ie. for the rest of the season and beyond). And for many people, myself included, Brad Miller has not been as good as we'd like, or expect him to be.

Not bashing a player, merely discussing ways in which we can improve the team, and at this point in time CHF is (and has been for a while) a big problem.

Your opinion is just that Doggo.......

But please do not pretend that Brad Miller (among others) has not copped more than his fair share of criticism, abuse and vitriol on this or the other site, and been blamed for losses and bad play in what is still, the last time I checked a team sport. And he has been scapegoated a hell of a lot.

You and the many like you are more than entitled to your opinions but don't simply assume that you are right, which is a tendency, because there are some of us (but not many that any given it is not a popular opinion) that don't agree and as one of those I believe that Miller still has more to offer this team.

Does he have room for improvement? Yes of course. But should that make him a common target for abuse and condemnation?

For starters his marking and goal kicking are the biggest problems, although I thought up until the last couple of weeks those aspects of his game were getting better, along with his confidence, which does seem to disappear too often.

After last years form, which was very ordinary (at best) it became the popular choice to beat up on Brad Miller (thus the phrase "Miller basher"), to blame him for everything from a dropped mark to global warming, and unfortunately he is going to have to just about cure cancer to get a pass from a lot of people around here.

I am not one to hurl criticism at any individual player on our list. But I can recognise faults and weaknesses and Brad has many, but I am not about to abuse or right off a player who sweats blood for this team (and I hope that no-one will ever criticise his attitude because others should look at it and learn) and I am certainly not going to wish him harm, as happened on another thread.

Some here make logical arguments about the Miller situation. Rhino has often said that Brad would be better served in the back line and he could well be proven right. But if that does prove to be the case then he must be left there and taught how to use the strengths he does have to our advantage. This doesn't seem to have happened as yet, especially last year with all the shuffling back and forward.

Unfortunately there are others here that just want to kick the guy when he is down, or to bring him down so they can kick him. And that is frankly pathetic. Because once a player, any player, pulls on the jumper he should always have our full and undivided support. That has definitely been lacking where Brad is concerned.

In the end we are each entitled to our own opinions, and I am going to back our players, including Miller to work through what ails them, and what we obviously can't tolerate, which is plenty. But that does not make me automatically wrong and others automatically right, nor the other way around.

If I am proven wrong then so be it, but I still have faith that Brad Miller can perform at the level we expect of him.

Maybe it would be interesting for someone (i cant be bothered right now ) to draw up a list of all the other CHF in the leauge and compare their out put to Millers. who knows, we may just find he isnt going that bad, or he may be worse than we think...

  QueenC said:

Unfortunately there are others here that just want to kick the guy when he is down, or to bring him down so they can kick him. And that is frankly pathetic.

I don't think anyone wants to bag Miller for the fun of it.

I'm pretty sure every demon supporter would love for him to be a great playa but he's making the same mistakes/or has the same weaknesses as he did 2-3 years ago.

Everyone's frustrated that he hasn't improved as a playa and built on his good start to his career.

We all thought he was something and when we don't see it, we vent. Simple as that.

  QueenC said:

........

For starters his marking and goal kicking are the biggest problems....

Some here make logical arguments about the Miller situation. Rhino has often said that Brad would be better served in the back line and he could well be proven right. But if that does prove to be the case then he must be left there and taught how to use the strengths he does have to our advantage. This doesn't seem to have happened as yet, especially last year with all the shuffling back and forward.

....

QC,

I admire Miller's work ethic and his application. Its clear to me he busts a gut which is more than many other more skilled and favoured players on this site do. While I dont agree with the abuse of public figures on this site, there have been many labelled bashers by posters who simple cannot accept that Miller has any limitations and he WILL be CHF.

When Miller played last year in the backline there were many who detested that role because their mindset was tunnelled that "he WILL be a CHF". They argued that he should be left at CHF for a considerable period. Well,...........he has been at CHF for a considerable period and he is not the CHF people want. I find it odd that he should be given more opportunities than are given to other players.

He is now in his sixth year at the Club and I am not sure we are likely to see much more than what we see to date.

  deezzz said:

Maybe it would be interesting for someone (i cant be bothered right now ) to draw up a list of all the other CHF in the leauge and compare their out put to Millers. who knows, we may just find he isnt going that bad, or he may be worse than we think...

im not sure how meaningful the stats will be. he plays a very different CHF roll to many others (especially when neitz is in the team). i believe that ND is happy for neitz and robbo to be our goalkickers with miller leading up the ground and straightening us up.

i like miller leading up the ground and marking it, ready to feed into the forward 50. its a plan that works, and can be very effective, especially when our midfield delivery is on song.

however, i would like to see millers kicking distance increase to around 50-55 metres. i know thats hard, but if he is going to lead away from goal, he needs to be able to kick goals when he marks around the 50. and i would like to see him go back and kick it into the 50 more often rather than handball to a player running past. i can only assume this is a coaches order (to stop opposition players manning up and double teaming inside the forward line), because if it wasnt i am sure it would have been stamped out of his game.

An interesting statistic to find out would be the amount of time it takes Brad Miller to kick the ball after he takes a mark.

If he could hold a friggin mark his fortunes would change. He is all at seas. Danners loves him so he will be given a few chances to rebound.

He has the ability, but time is running out no doubt about it.

Fingers crossed he finds some mongrel and some footy and starts being the millzy we all came to love (the old hip and shoulder millzy that was up at the tribunal every second week, the one that could take a contested mark)

CARN MILLLLZY

  QueenC said:

Your opinion is just that Doggo.......

But please do not pretend that Brad Miller (among others) has not copped more than his fair share of criticism, abuse and vitriol on this or the other site, and been blamed for losses and bad play in what is still, the last time I checked, a team sport. And he has been scapegoated a hell of a lot.

I'd like to see Brad succeed as much as anybody would. I'm not what you'd call a typical 'Miller-basher', in fact, i like Brad. Have met him on several occassions and he seems a great guy, and also an admirable gut-runner on the track and in games. But, I'm of the opinion that we would be better served with Brad as a defender given his limitations. He is not a naturally attacking player, therefore in my eyes will never be as good a CHF as we'd need to win the flag in the future. Why should we persist with him in that position when he has not shown what is required in 5 seasons of footy? Simple.

I am not blaming Brad in any way.

In fact, i find that in the games where we have played well this season, he has gone missing, and when we have played poorly, he seems to play better. Which really is in complete contradiction to the "Miller is why we lost" or "Why we are playing badly" scapegoat argument. But I think this is testement to his workrate. When others are not trying as hard, he lifts.

And i'm not pretending he hasnt been scapegoted like hell. But i do understand why he has... there are many supporters, myself included (actually, i can only speak for myself on this), who would like to see Neale accept Brad's flaws, and change his game plan accordingly. Miller leading far and wide has not worked, time to cut your losses ND and change something. I.e-- Miller to the backline permenantly, or to the VFL to play as an out and out attacking forward. And if he can't cut it as a goal-kicking, pack-busting CHF at VFL level, then thats all the answers we need to the questions we've been asking for a few years now.