On 23/03/2021 at 01:00, NeveroddoreveN said:

Said similar before myself.  Max wins his tap then does nothing to help the midfielders clear the congestion.  He is a liability almost when the ball hits the ground.   He needs to start throwing his weight around, he is a huge unit but Spargo plays with more tenacity around the contests.  Max needs to start playing with lot more aggression, clearing paths for our onballers by blocks/screens or just throwing himself at a contest and make things happen.

Complaining to the umpires shows the weak mindset he actually has during games.   

Seeing him being bullied by comparative midgets says a lot about us.  He is our Captain and if he does not lead by example and fly the flag occasionally, who will?  

Love Max as a "character" and apparently he trains like a dedicated footballer should, but it is time to show a hardened edge to his game to not make him so easy to play against.

I don't think Max gets angry though, or he never shows it by his actions.

Every match is a virtual war, he needs to start playing accordingly.  ATM a player like Mumford would do a lot more for our esteemed midfield.  

FFS get angry and SHOW it Max!

I love Max but he gets bullied every game and just sooks. Needs to dish some out

  On 23/03/2021 at 00:16, JimmyGadson said:

Our game absolutely still relies on us being on top in clearance and contest. It has to, given the type of players Goodwin puts in and around the ball. 

I think it's clear as day our game style against Freo was not by design.

With respect, I disagree with both of these points.

We have changed the way we play and we no longer prioritse winning clearances the way we did under Roos or in Goodies first three seasons as coach. Which by the by, contradicts the Goody doesn't change narrative many on DL adhere to. 

Again i'm not saying clearances are not important to us, but there a has been a clear tactical shift in regard to the relative importance of clearances - a shift that gathered pace in the second half of last season

• In 2018 we were 4th in clearance differential with +2.4  (the tigers were last, with -5.6)
• In 2019 we were 3rd in clearance differential with +3  (the tigers were 16th, with -4.6, the eagles, who won the flag, were 7th with +0.3)
• In 2020 we were 6th in clearance differential with +1.4  (the tigers were 16th, with -3.8, the team they beat in the Grand Final, the lions was 9th at +1.1)

Added to the above the Hawks under Clarkson, the most successful team in modern history, have not have a huge focus on winning clearances.

To win a flag recent history would suggest clearances ain't where it's at.

And thankfully goodie has clearly recognised this and made the appropriate tactical change. 

It is worth noting in this context that under Cameron, the Giants have been very focused on winning clearances.  Topped the differential table in 2017, third in 2018 and second in 2019 - the year they made the Grand Final (and got smashed by a team not focused on clearances).

And in 2020? Twelfth.

Coincidence? Maybe.

But more likely, Cameron, like all AFL coaches, has drilled down on what factors have made the tigers so successful and tried to replicate them. Which is smart.

The dogs topped the clearance differential table when they won the flag in 2016, but no doubt responding to the factors have contributed  to premiership success have been mid table since.

Interestingly the Power have topped the clearance differential table the last two years, so have landed on a different tactical model. Time will tell if it is works. But history suggests it won't.

Source for data: https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings?year=2020&type=DA&sby=29&advv=Y 

Edited March 23, 20214 yr by binman

I think that this is basically what is going on - he's a great bloke and a bit of a larrikin, but like you say let's see him fire up and throw that weight around.  Especially now he's getting a chop out from Dogga up forward. 

  On 23/03/2021 at 01:00, NeveroddoreveN said:

Said similar before myself.  Max wins his tap then does nothing to help the midfielders clear the congestion.  He is a liability almost when the ball hits the ground.   He needs to start throwing his weight around, he is a huge unit but Spargo plays with more tenacity around the contests.  Max needs to start playing with lot more aggression, clearing paths for our onballers by blocks/screens or just throwing himself at a contest and make things happen.

Complaining to the umpires shows the weak mindset he actually has during games.   

Seeing him being bullied by comparative midgets says a lot about us.  He is our Captain and if he does not lead by example and fly the flag occasionally, who will?  

Love Max as a "character" and apparently he trains like a dedicated footballer should, but it is time to show a hardened edge to his game to not make him so easy to play against.

I don't think Max gets angry though, or he never shows it by his actions.

Every match is a virtual war, he needs to start playing accordingly.  ATM a player like Mumford would do a lot more for our esteemed midfield.  

FFS get angry and SHOW it Max!

 

  On 23/03/2021 at 02:52, binman said:

With respect, I disagree with both of these points.

We have changed the way we play and we no longer prioritse winning clearances the way we did under Roos or in Goodies first three seasons as coach. Which by the by, contradicts the Goody doesn't change narrative many on DL adhere to. 

Again i'm not saying clearances are not important to us, but there a has been a clear tactical shift in regard to the relative importance of clearances - a shift that gathered pace in the second half of last season

• In 2018 we were 4th in clearance differential with +2.4  (the tigers were last, with -5.6)
• In 2019 we were 3rd in clearance differential with +3  (the tigers were 16th, with -4.6, the eagles, who won the flag, were 7th with +0.3)
• In 2020 we were 6th in clearance differential with +1.4  (the tigers were 16th, with -3.8, the team they beat in the Grand Final, the lions was 9th at +1.1)

Added to the above the Hawks under Clarkson, the most successful team in modern history, have not have a huge focus on winning clearances.

To win a flag recent history would suggest clearances ain't where it's at.

And thankfully goodie has clearly recognised this and made the appropriate tactical change. 

It is worth noting in this context that under Cameron, the Giants have been very focused on winning clearances.  Topped the differential table in 2017, third in 2018 and second in 2019 - the year they made the Grand Final (and got smashed by a team not focused on clearances).

And in 2020? Twelfth.

Coincidence? Maybe.

But more likely, Cameron, like all AFL coaches, has drilled down on what factors have made the tigers so successful and tried to replicate them. Which is smart.

The dogs topped the clearance differential table when they won the flag in 2016, but no doubt responding to the factors have contributed  to premiership success have been mid table since.

Interestingly the Power have topped the clearance differential table the last two years, so have landed on a different tactical model. Time will tell if it is works. But history suggests it won't.

Source for data: https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings?year=2020&type=DA&sby=29&advv=Y 

I like the effort you have put into this post, but to suggest such a strong correlation (positive or negative) between winning flags and clearances is, in my view at least, misleading.

There are a number of other factors which I would contend were more important for each of those teams in winning flags.  The most notable being forward driven defensive pressure - the real hallmark of Richmond's game.  People don't watch Richmond and say - they are defined by losing clearances and Vlaustuin/Houli rebounding off halfback (although I agree this could be a strategic face of their game).  They note the second efforts and shut down pressure of their small forward brigade. 

This isn't to say I don't agree with your analysis that "clearances aren't as significant KPI as people may think". Tend to agree on that measure, in fact i'm not sure we get much from such a dominant aerial ruckman either. 

  On 23/03/2021 at 03:26, Altona-demon said:

I like the effort you have put into this post, but to suggest such a strong correlation (positive or negative) between winning flags and clearances is, in my view at least, misleading.

There are a number of other factors which I would contend were more important for each of those teams in winning flags.  The most notable being forward driven defensive pressure - the real hallmark of Richmond's game.  People don't watch Richmond and say - they are defined by losing clearances and Vlaustuin/Houli rebounding off halfback (although I agree this could be a strategic face of their game).  They note the second efforts and shut down pressure of their small forward brigade. 

This isn't to say I don't agree with your analysis that "clearances aren't as significant KPI as people may think". Tend to agree on that measure, in fact i'm not sure we get much from such a dominant aerial ruckman either. 

No but I think he's pointing out that just because we got beaten in the clearance is no cause for alarm (as many reacted after the game).  We beat a team who are tipped to finish around us or just below and many were saying the clearance numbers were cause for concern.

With max in there I would expect us to do better.  But if we are setting up so that when we win a clearance it is a clean effective win and when we lose it is less likely to be damaging to us then that is a great change - even if it means we're winning less of them.  Quality over quantity.

I remember watching a number of games against Richmond in recent years where I noticed how hard Oliver and co fought to win the clearance only to have  Vlaustin / Houli and co rebound off half back - they might not be defined by it but it is a big strategic win for them.  Playing against Hawthorn when they were a finals team was much the same.

I think over time we will see the likes of Kozzie and maybe even Melkshem spend more time in the centre square as we look to find some quicker skilful agile types to enable break away clearances - Richmond with Shai Bolton are again setting the standard with this.

 

  On 22/03/2021 at 22:48, ManDee said:

Strawbs was a good player. I think he was better than Stynes. He had mongrel and put the wind up the opposition. He was cruelled by injury. I don't think you can teach mongrel.

Mongrel is essential. It does not have to be sheer violence. Subtle accidents do occur, and players move on to the next part of the game/ground. Opposition smart-R-says are so open to advisories these days (the silent type of professional moderation despatch) that limit and complicate their initial levels of involvement and engagement for the ball. That is enough wisdom transference,  in my view. Strawbs was a good player and an effective one, at that; he was full of sound advice (as described above) for all opponents whilst putting his wing around the welfare of his teammates - particularly those with duck's disease. Ricky Jackson come to mind - even clinging to the skirts of Strawbs to ensure a team possession or two during the match.

We need a 'Strawbs' right now. Hence, the value of AVB when match-ready. As far as teaching is concerned, here endeth the lesson. 

  On 23/03/2021 at 03:26, Altona-demon said:

I like the effort you have put into this post, but to suggest such a strong correlation (positive or negative) between winning flags and clearances is, in my view at least, misleading.

 

Again AD, it appears you have  misunderstood me.

I'm not sure what you mean saying i have suggested 'such a strong correlation' between winning flags and clearances or what you mean by misleading?

Fact are facts.

Of course there are outliers, but the facts are indisputable. The majority of flags in the last 15 years have been won by teams who have not prioritized winning clearances.

It is not a statistical blip. It is evidence of a particular tactical approach. One the dees are now adopting. Thankfully. 

The two most successful teams of the modern era - the hawks and the Tigers have been near the bottom of the clearance differential table in their premiership year. 

I totally agree there any number of other key factors contributing to the success in the Hawks and tigers winning seasons.  I wasn't suggesting otherwise. 

I didn't even imply clearances was the most important factor, or suggest they are more or less important than the other factors.

You might argue forward driven defensive pressure is the most important factor. And you might be right. Or not (i would argue a team that has fully bought into the system and have a collective 'winning first culture' is the most important factor). But that is a different discussion. 

The dees are now less focused on the need to win clearances than we were. In this respect we are following the tiger's lead.

We are also following their lead in a host of other ways, tactical and cultural. 

Of course we don't want to be down eight zip early doors.  However it is worth nothing that we ended the game down eight in clearances, meaning from about the 20 minute mark of the first quarter we broke even. Suggesting Goodwin made some changes.