On 19/06/2017 at 10:42, dieter said:

probly we could too...

On second thoughts, pwobwabwy not. We'd probably start arguing straight away about what bottle of red. You'd nominate a Shiraz, I'd nominate a Barolo. And, I don't drink beer.

Anyway, the bottom line is that most of the world's woes are directly related to the behavior of your ilk.  We wouldn't solve anything. We'd be even more twain than Mark at the end.

Dieter you would only drink Shiraz if it was halal, such is your confusion.

  On 19/06/2017 at 11:33, Wrecker45 said:

Dieter you would only drink Shiraz if it was halal, such is your confusion.

Had 2 Shiraz wines tonight: Lilydale 2013, Beechworth Wine estate 2014.Unfortunately the Lilydale, an export wine to China under the McWilliams banner was great, the Beechworth okay. Just okay because I represent them in Melbourne...I wanted it to be great as well...

  On 19/06/2017 at 11:36, dieter said:

Had 2 Shiraz wines tonight: Lilydale 2013, Beechworth Wine estate 2014.Unfortunately the Lilydale, an export wine to China under the McWilliams banner was great, the Beechworth okay. Just okay because I represent them in Melbourne...I wanted it to be great as well...

Che? Who is Halal? You didn't tell me we'd have to share a bottle between 3!

  On 19/06/2017 at 10:32, Wrecker45 said:

What's for dinner? I'm sure we could solve the worlds problems over a couple of beers and a of bottle of red.

Yoicks! Not only do I have to defend the modern welfare state, I have to defend what I had for dinner.

 

Anyway, it was a vegetarian lasagna, much of it fresh from the garden, and delicious, thank you for asking.

 

Dunno if I could ever solve many of the world's problems - I have enough trouble solving my own. FWIW, I have this feeling that, for all the wine-fueled arguments,  people rarely change their political stripes - I reckon whether we are conservative or progressive is a consequence of our personalities - you can look at a bunch on kindergarten kids and work out how they'll be voting in twenty years. Some people are more independent, self-centred, etc - others more sharing, caring, communal. I suspect we need both. I mean, it's all very well to admire Rupert Murdoch or Gina Reinhardt, but you wouldn't want either of them as your nurse when you hit the old folks' home.

 

I'll have to think about your question in response to my (alas, very knee-jerk) comment about the left/right divide and those public services. My initial response is that I said it because I've always thought of Labor as more supportive of things like public education, hospitals and even transport. The Conservative parties seem to be the natural home of those who prefer - and can afford - private schools, hospitals and freeways.  

That's simplistic, I know - obviously both sides support all of those things to a degree, but it's a matter of where they place their emphasis. Think of Medicare, for example - founded by Labor, frequently under attack by the Libs. (And yes, I can guess what your response will be - that much of the money to fund it comes from those closer to the big end of town - maybe it does, but we all chip in, through our taxes, and it seems to work pretty well, certainly compared to what they have in America) 

  On 20/06/2017 at 03:19, Jara said:

Dunno if I could ever solve many of the world's problems - I have enough trouble solving my own. FWIW, I have this feeling that, for all the wine-fueled arguments,  people rarely change their political stripes - I reckon whether we are conservative or progressive is a consequence of our personalities

 

I dunno Jara. I thought of myself as pretty conservative until I came on here a few years back and discovered that I was a pinko hippy.

  On 20/06/2017 at 03:19, Jara said:

Yoicks! Not only do I have to defend the modern welfare state, I have to defend what I had for dinner.

@Wrecker45 This is the mentality you're dealing with.

He/she thinks they have to defend their choice of dinner when all you were being was conciliatory.

  On 20/06/2017 at 08:23, ProDee said:

@Wrecker45 This is the mentality you're dealing with.

He/she thinks they have to defend their choice of dinner when all you were being was conciliatory.

Yeah, right.

I suppose this needs to be explained to you in words of one syllable or less, but it was meant to be a joke. I was being conciliatory myself. I liked Wrecker's response.

 

Yours, on the other hand...

 

  On 20/06/2017 at 08:28, Jara said:

Yeah, right.

I suppose this needs to be explained to you in words of one syllable or less, but it was meant to be a joke. I was being conciliatory myself. I liked Wrecker's response.

 

Yours, on the other hand...

 

Hysterical.

Well it wasn't, but compared to yours, it was.

  On 20/06/2017 at 09:20, Jara said:

Compared to yours, it was.

Strange beasts on this site, strange beasts indeed.

  On 20/06/2017 at 09:22, dieter said:

Strange beasts on this site, strange beasts indeed.

True. Poor old Pro has a rather binary approach to life, doesn't he? Anybody with views opposed to his (i.e. about half of society, given the number of people who vote Labor) is "mentally ill".

No idea what he gets up to away from the keyboard, but I bet he's been a raging success with an attitude that subtle and sophisticated. 

  On 20/06/2017 at 10:05, Jara said:

True. Poor old Pro has a rather binary approach to life, doesn't he? Anybody with views opposed to his (i.e. about half of society, given the number of people who vote Labor) is "mentally ill".

No idea what he gets up to away from the keyboard, but I bet he's been a raging success with an attitude that subtle and sophisticated. 

I believe - no, truly - 'he' is actually Pauline Hanson. You'll note, for example, when it comes to listing his favorite players he simply puts a number - 1313, I believe - so he's no different from the Melbourne Establishment members who yell out, 'Good Mark Number 9', but Pauline/ProDee doesn't seem to know that Player Number Plates very very rarely go above the low 50's unless they've been relegated to Casey. So he/she seems to be very uneducated about basic AFL jumper protocols.

I can just picture him/her shouting out 'Good kick' number 957.'

Jara, you seem to be a rather gentle and thoughtful chap.

I'm too f..king old to be gentle. My parents went through WW2 in varying capacities and the country I originated from was blamed for every atrocity imagined and un-imagined. Like after WW1, the War to end all Wars, the so-called victors have learnt nothing. Just about everything Orwell predicted - but let's face it he didn't have to be a genius to see the bleeding obvious, honesty would have sufficed - has come true.

Everything has turned full circle again so that the same lies, the same propaganda, reign.

Countries are invaded and destroyed based on lies, the people from those countries flee, more countries are invaded, either by proxy or directly, more refugees are created, more chaos erupts when the refugees from the wars and slaughter we have created and committed arrive at our doorsteps and to salve our precious consciences, we either declare them 'Illegal' or we call them terrorists when the inevitable consequences of the terror we have inflicted comes home to roost.

To justify it all we note that these 'terrorists' are Muslims. So when a Muslim shoots someone in sacred Brighton it's a Terrorist Event, 10 pages in even the Age, yet when a crazed so-called Christian Greek drives along footpaths in  Bourke Street it's....well, obviously NOT a terrorist event. Why? Cos the f..king moron criminal self indulgent drug crazed ar.ehole isn't a f..king Muslim.

  On 20/06/2017 at 10:05, Jara said:

True. Poor old Pro has a rather binary approach to life, doesn't he? Anybody with views opposed to his (i.e. about half of society, given the number of people who vote Labor) is "mentally ill".

No idea what he gets up to away from the keyboard, but I bet he's been a raging success with an attitude that subtle and sophisticated. 

You'll find the overall quality of posts on demonland heightens greatly after you block him. Unfortunately you get reminded of his existence constantly with the little yellow lines that appear in place of his posts. Still, better than having to read his spiteful tripe.

Wrecker is probably the only right winger worth engaging, as he's the only one who seems in it for the discourse and not the trolling. DC too, although I think he may be more centrist - I dunno.

 

  On 20/06/2017 at 11:29, dieter said:

I'm too f..king old to be gentle. My parents went through WW2 in varying capacities and the country I originated from was blamed for every atrocity imagined and un-imagined. Like after WW1, the War to end all Wars, the so-called victors have learnt nothing. Just about everything Orwell predicted - but let's face it he didn't have to be a genius to see the bleeding obvious, honesty would have sufficed - has come true.

Everything has turned full circle again so that the same lies, the same propaganda, reign.

Countries are invaded and destroyed based on lies, the people from those countries flee, more countries are invaded, either by proxy or directly, more refugees are created, more chaos erupts when the refugees from the wars and slaughter we have created and committed arrive at our doorsteps and to salve our precious consciences, we either declare them 'Illegal' or we call them terrorists when the inevitable consequences of the terror we have inflicted comes home to roost.

To justify it all we note that these 'terrorists' are Muslims. So when a Muslim shoots someone in sacred Brighton it's a Terrorist Event, 10 pages in even the Age, yet when a crazed so-called Christian Greek drives along footpaths in  Bourke Street it's....well, obviously NOT a terrorist event. Why? Cos the f..king moron criminal self indulgent drug crazed ar.ehole isn't a f..king Muslim.

Top post here (without the Hansen stuff).

You're an interesting man Dieter. Can't say I agree with your conspiracy theories but your heart seems in the right place.

Hey Dieter - thanks for taking the trouble to write such a thoughtful post.

 

We all try to understand this crazy world as best we can. 

 

Agree with you that much of the blame for our current crisis comes from the insane actions of the empires.

 

I differ from you on the terrorist thing - when a crazy Greek runs people over in the Bourke Street Mall he doesn't think he's doing it on behalf of Greeks. The islamic terrorists think they're doing it on behalf of their religion - also a form of insanity, but more contagious, with a millenarian component, and therefore more worrying in the long run.

That's also why I'm worried about Islamophobia - it inspires more of the lunatics - I reckon the only thing we can do is keep reaching out to our Islamic fellow citizens, try to understand each other.  

 

There's a terrific local singer called Brent Parlane - years ago he wrote a song I like called Springvale Road - about Vietnamese migrants - one line in it ran: "Our kids'll play together in their own time." Hopefully that will happen with Muslims - in fact, of course, it already is. I see it in my university every day.

It is the conundrum. 

Crazies all over the world doing unspeakable acts in the name of their religion.

The three monotheistic religion's text's all have abhorrent sections advocating various forms of punishment including death  for what we consider today,  inconsequential actions. Call to arms against non believers and severe punishment for transgressors. 

I read an interesting book on Temple Mount written some 15 years ago. It talked about the number of plots that were foiled each year to blow up Al Aqsa mosque and The Dome of the Rock. The vast majority of these plots were financed by fundamentalist Christians in the US - backing fundamentalist Jews to blow up these structures in order to remove Muslims and bring on the rapture. Insanity. 

Until recently I held the view that if moderate religious views are held then all good and well - each to their own. But there is so much wrong being done in the name of religions I am now of the view that we would be a much better place if religions just didn't exist. 

  On 20/06/2017 at 23:47, Jara said:

 

 

I differ from you on the terrorist thing - when a crazy Greek runs people over in the Bourke Street Mall he doesn't think he's doing it on behalf of Greeks. The islamic terrorists think they're doing it on behalf of their religion - also a form of insanity, but more contagious, with a millenarian component, and therefore more worrying in the long run.

That's also why I'm worried about Islamophobia - it inspires more of the lunatics - I reckon the only thing we can do is keep reaching out to our Islamic fellow citizens, try to understand each other.  

 

T

That's exactly my point. Years ago there was a Herald Sun Poster outside the Balwyn Newsagency.

It said: MUSLIM ROBS BANK.

I really don't believe that lunatics like Monis, like the Brighton killer were in any way motivated by their religion. Neither was the drug crazed Greek. It's just that when a Christian behaves that way...you get the point.

Also, the mainstream Press almost had to be bludgeoned into calling the London Mosque Drive Through Attack an act of Terrorism...

  On 20/06/2017 at 03:19, Jara said:

 

 

Dunno if I could ever solve many of the world's problems - I have enough trouble solving my own. FWIW, I have this feeling that, for all the wine-fueled arguments,  people rarely change their political stripes - I reckon whether we are conservative or progressive is a consequence of our personalities - you can look at a bunch on kindergarten kids and work out how they'll be voting in twenty years. Some people are more independent, self-centred, etc - others more sharing, caring, communal. I suspect we need both. I mean, it's all very well to admire Rupert Murdoch or Gina Reinhardt, but you wouldn't want either of them as your nurse when you hit the old folks' home.

 

 

Changing opinion when the facts change is a sign of intelligence and not falling for a pre-conceived bias. I'd be surprised if you could tell who kinder kids will vote for just by their personality; other than the bullies who turn out to be great unionists, or the dobbers who go on to be the perpetual victim.

 

I imagine a lot of bullies have gone on to become captains of industry, plenty of dobbers gone on to be their lackeys. 

What opinions have you changed in your adult life? (I only ask because you do seem to have rigid ideas on most things) 

  On 21/06/2017 at 02:04, Jara said:

I imagine a lot of bullies have gone on to become captains of industry, plenty of dobbers gone on to be their lackeys. 

What opinions have you changed in your adult life? (I only ask because you do seem to have rigid ideas on most things) 

I change my opinion all the time. I'll give you a brief sample but I could go on forever. I change my mind when the facts change.

oscar macdonald - thought we should play him in the reserves until he was ready

global warming - my grand father had a place on the beach and I thought the green house effect was going to destroy it. Now I realise global warming / green house effect / climate change are a fraud. The seas are not rising.

john Howard - I thought he was a man of his word but he wasn't on weapons of mass destruction and giving his word to Costello

gillard - I really liked her up until she became pm. Was one of my favourite politicians. 

 

 

 

  On 20/06/2017 at 05:07, Choke said:

 

I dunno Jara. I thought of myself as pretty conservative until I came on here a few years back and discovered that I was a pinko hippy.

I thought I was progressive until I came on here and discovered I was in the centre.

  On 21/06/2017 at 02:24, Wrecker45 said:

Ijohn Howard - I thought he was a man of his word but he wasn't on weapons of mass destruction and giving his word to Costello

gillard - I really liked her up until she became pm. Was one of my favourite politicians. 

 

Right with you here. She could have been great.

She was not.

  On 20/06/2017 at 11:29, dieter said:

 

To justify it all we note that these 'terrorists' are Muslims. So when a Muslim shoots someone in sacred Brighton it's a Terrorist Event, 10 pages in even the Age, yet when a crazed so-called Christian Greek drives along footpaths in  Bourke Street it's....well, obviously NOT a terrorist event. Why? Cos the f..king moron criminal self indulgent drug crazed ar.ehole isn't a f..king Muslim.

Dieter - Terrorism is killing for religious or political beliefs. When that crazy Christian-Greek indiscrimately mowed down drivers it didn't fit the citearia. He was just an ice addict with a sexuality problem.

The coward in London of few days ago who he ran down Muslim's in front of a mosque is an example of terrorism. It wasn't a Muslim perpetrator but was rightly called out for what it was. Terrorism.

There is no bias there. The large majority of modern terrorism is in the name of Islam. 

  On 21/06/2017 at 03:53, Wrecker45 said:

Dieter - Terrorism is killing for religious or political beliefs. When that crazy Christian-Greek indiscrimately mowed down drivers it didn't fit the citearia. He was just an ice addict with a sexuality problem.

The coward in London of few days ago who he ran down Muslim's in front of a mosque is an example of terrorism. It wasn't a Muslim perpetrator but was rightly called out for what it was. Terrorism.

There is no bias there. The large majority of modern terrorism is in the name of Islam. 

The large majority of modern terrorism has been committed by the USA and its cronies. Have you ever been bombed, Wrecker? We talking about all the bombs dropped on innocent people in Afghanistan, Iraq, by its cronies - Isis and Al queda - in Syria and by the Nato bombardment of Libya and Serbia. They say the death toll in these countries runs into the hundreds of thousands. Can you justify just one of those bombs?

  On 21/06/2017 at 04:10, dieter said:

The large majority of modern terrorism has been committed by the USA and its cronies. Have you ever been bombed, Wrecker? We talking about all the bombs dropped on innocent people in Afghanistan, Iraq, by its cronies - Isis and Al queda - in Syria and by the Nato bombardment of Libya and Serbia. They say the death toll in these countries runs into the hundreds of thousands. Can you justify just one of those bombs?

No, have you? 

  On 21/06/2017 at 04:27, Wrecker45 said:

No, have you? 

My mother was bombed. It is the most terrifying experience.

Also, whether I have or not is irrelevant.

What is very relevant for me is that from the comfort of your armchair in suburbia you seem to approve of the kind of terror the USA has inflicted on so many countries.  

As a former US Air Force bomber pilot wrote recently, it occurred to him one day that sooner or later the countries and people you pepper with Napalm, depleted Uranium, Phosphorus etc etc will one day inevitably refuse to take it on the chin.

Then, when someone from these countries retaliates in a way totally disproportionate to what has been inflicted on him or her, you cry Terrorist.