How much can skills be improved

[nutbean 8,838]

I was thinking last night about our skill level and how much improvement can be made when 18 year olds come onto an AFL list. ( I include decision making in this discussion)

There are Nathan Jones' who has worked very hard on his skills and we have seen an improvement with his hand and foot skills but for every Nathan Jones there are many more players from all clubs ( especially ours) who come to clubs as "butchers" of the ball and never progress past Tasman meats.

You need to take injuries out of the equation because I believe the likes of Trengove who's footskills are quite good were hampered last season through injury.

Watch the likes of Swan and Priddis - both getting huge amounts of football but both are still very wasteful and their skills ( especially by foot) are average at best. From our club who have now left - Rivers, Morton and Petterd who all were in the system for a long while still turn the ball over with regularity. Even watching our friend Tom Scully - by all reports still a maniac in his dedication to training - cant kick a football ( although he is good by hand)

I just believe that most players who come into the system as turnover kings - stay turnover kings.

[jazza 1,323]

well said, and the recruiters have selected a few athletes and the swans always select the best available FOOTBALL player , no matter what size or pace. then they are prepared to coach that player in the ressies for 3 years if needed to make him a senior.

but generally apart from pyke , they go for the best player when thier turn arrives at the draft

[Little Richard 6,262]

It can be done and skills are a lot more learnable than other attributes such as toughness/good work ethic.

But to improve skills (and anything for that matter) you need the right attitude, motivation and good teachers and all these are lacking at the football club i fear.

[Sir Why You Little 36,979]

CONFIDENCE & TRUST IN TEAM MATES

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

There are players who simply can't kick because they have flawed actions (Scully and Tom McDonald), but I believe a lot of the time good skills come about because of who or what a player is kicking to.

For example, Melbourne players don't work hard for each other. They are often flat-footed and don't work into space, therefore teammates are often forced to kick the ball to a player under pressure, or they are kicking to where the player is, not where he will be .

[nutbean 8,838]

CONFIDENCE & TRUST IN TEAM MATES

thats got nothing to do with skills at all....Simon Godfrey may have had confidence and trust but butchered the ball unmercifully - Terry Wallace played in premiership and was a mastercut butcher of the highest order. Swan played in a premiership side and is average.

I do agree that the better sides usually afford their players a split second more to dispose of the ball than the likes of our team who always seem to be under pressure.

I also agree it can be taught and improved with lots of work and the right attitude - but I actually think more often than not that if you have 2 or 3 years at the start of your career with poor skills - I dont think they improve.

[Sir Why You Little 36,979]

There are players who simply can't kick because they have flawed actions (Scully and Tom McDonald), but I believe a lot of the time good skills come about because of who or what a player is kicking to.

For example, Melbourne players don't work hard for each other. They are often flat-footed and don't work into space, therefore teammates are often forced to kick the ball to a player under pressure, or they are kicking to where the player is, not where he will be .

Correct.

Look at Essendrugs spread on Anzac Day.

I watched only the first half, but the entire team ran and spread continually.

Options were always there. It's not hard with the right attitude.

Why we still do not do it confounds me weekly.

It should be an automatic reaction.

[btdemon 482]

Listening to SEN yesterday (tragic) and Dermie had some really interesting things to say about kicking action, both on the run and from a standing start. He was talking about it like a golf swing, where all of the components have to be in balance. The biggest thing he mentioned was the importance of keeping the hips perpendicular to the target. This requires good flexible hammies if the follow through is going to be straight. Combine that with a reliable ball drop, clean strike and good timing and touch and you have a good kick. All of this things can be taught but combining them together in one symphony is a rare skill. Some guys have it, some have to work like buggery to achieve it and some never do. Jack Grimes, Chippa and t Mac is are really good examples. You can see them thinking out the kick. When the pressure is on they often falter.

[CHAMP 347]

Dermie likes to draw golf analogies whenever possible. He was responsible for "shank" in the sense of a "miskick"; the term is largely inappropriate (it somewhat describes trajectory but not impact). When Dermot played he didn't give a thought to how he was kicking, he just did it. He was fortunate enough to have ingrained a good action.

It is only since his ordination as a Media Expert that he's instituted himself as a biomechanical wizard.

As with golf, good skill is a consequence of making best-practice routine. Is it ingrained by perfect repetition.

I'm not sure about Dermie's golf expertise either (the last I heard anything of it was some time ago when he was playing Honma woods off 14).

[nutbean 8,838]

Dermie likes to draw golf analogies whenever possible. He was responsible for "shank" in the sense of a "miskick"; the term is largely inappropriate (it somewhat describes trajectory but not impact). When Dermot played he didn't give a thought to how he was kicking, he just did it. He was fortunate enough to have ingrained a good action.

It is only since his ordination as a Media Expert that he's instituted himself as a biomechanical wizard.

As with golf, good skill is a consequence of making best-practice routine. Is it ingrained by perfect repetition.

I'm not sure about Dermie's golf expertise either (the last I heard anything of it was some time ago when he was playing Honma woods off 14).

So I will use Scully as an example then. As much as we dislike him everything we have heard about him is the lengths he goes ( and has gone) to prepare himself to be the best footballer he can be. Yet his foot skills are below par.

I have no reason to believe that he wouldnt work his arse off to be the best he can be so...

1/ Either he cannot master a correct kicking action AND/Or

2/ Clubs dont try and rectify imperfect actions

I am not sure which one it is.

[Young Dee 1,303]

How long is a piece of string?

We will never know!

[nutbean 8,838]

How long is a piece of string?

We will never know!

We should know...it amazes that in the world of professional athletes one of the most fundamental skills is performed poorly and in so many cases never improves through out the career.

[DeeSpencer 25,471]

Jack Viney is a great test case. His numbers will be down due to winning a lot of contested ball. Players who do that like Joel Selwood will always struggle for high disposal efficiency. However as he gets more comfortable at AFL level and in a better side I expect him to improve. He doesn't have a perfect action but

I bet at one stage he starts to look like a turnover merchant but should fix it up.

Jack Grimes in an interesting test case. He'll play large parts of games kicking the ball beautifully then shank one straight to an opponent. Garland the same. Both have reasonable actions.

Frawley has a butt ugly action but is reliable if kicking long and wide.

I'd actually prefer to see us over possess the ball at times to benefit our kicking even if it results in turnovers. The dogs are doing that.

[nutbean 8,838]

Jack Viney is a great test case. His numbers will be down due to winning a lot of contested ball. Players who do that like Joel Selwood will always struggle for high disposal efficiency. However as he gets more comfortable at AFL level and in a better side I expect him to improve. He doesn't have a perfect action but

I bet at one stage he starts to look like a turnover merchant but should fix it up.

Jack Grimes in an interesting test case. He'll play large parts of games kicking the ball beautifully then shank one straight to an opponent. Garland the same. Both have reasonable actions.

Frawley has a butt ugly action but is reliable if kicking long and wide.

I'd actually prefer to see us over possess the ball at times to benefit our kicking even if it results in turnovers. The dogs are doing that.

I hear you ...I am not referring to the kicks under pressure in hotly contested situations - compare Swan to Pendlebury. Pendlebury sometimes snaps out of a pack - or rushes the ball to boot from a clearance situation and sometimes it comes off sometimes not. When he has half a second he rarely wastes it - the same cannot be said for Swan.

[DeeSpencer 25,471]

We should know...it amazes that in the world of professional athletes one of the most fundamental skills is performed poorly and in so many cases never improves through out the career.

But it happens in all sports. Some golfers just can't putt. Some NBA players just can't shoot. Some NFL QBs just can't make clutch throws.

In any sport that is a balance of skill and other factors you'll have guys who aren't good at the basic skills.

Sydney is one team that always impress me. They don't have a perfect team of skilled players but they train them up and rarely make bad turnovers.

One thing Melbourne needs to do and I'm not sure if Neeld knows this or not is lift training intensity but a huge margin. We might run hard and fast in training but the pressure applied for skills is really low. It's like we practice ten pin bowling with the bumpers up and from half way down the lane then expect it to work on matchday.

[praha 11,236]

Howe's kicking has improved out of sight.

[DeeSpencer 25,471]

I hear you ...I am not referring to the kicks under pressure in hotly contested situations - compare Swan to Pendlebury. Pendlebury sometimes snaps out of a pack - or rushes the ball to boot from a clearance situation and sometimes it comes off sometimes not. When he has half a second he rarely wastes it - the same cannot be said for Swan.

Yeah but I think Viney will be more like Swan early in his career then fix it up. I think his kicking will follow the same path as Jones'. Just when he starts to really get maligned for it he'll tidy it up. But playing in a good team will help him no end.

[CHAMP 347]

Changing a kicking action (like changing a golf swing) takes ages. You have to go right back to basics and establish an entirely new muscle and mental memory.

It took Stewie Lowe a couple of years but he did it, going from a bloke who struggled to kick 40m to a very good kick.

[nutbean 8,838]

Yeah but I think Viney will be more like Swan early in his career then fix it up. I think his kicking will follow the same path as Jones'. Just when he starts to really get maligned for it he'll tidy it up. But playing in a good team will help him no end.

is it that easy ? Swan hasnt, Priddis hasnt, Carrazo hasnt ( although in fairness he is better than he was).

Hawthorn made it known that they wanted elite kicks of the footballs - there arent too many wasters of the ball at the Hawks

[nutbean 8,838]

Changing a kicking action (like changing a golf swing) takes ages. You have to go right back to basics and establish an entirely new muscle and mental memory.

It took Stewie Lowe a couple of years but he did it, going from a bloke who struggled to kick 40m to a very good kick.

You are talking about taking a set shot which is easier again. (except for some exceptions who overthing them and are more comfortable on the run)

[CHAMP 347]

Howe's kicking has improved out of sight.

He still struggles with shots that are more directly in front, I think, where the "straight back and straight through" mentality interferes with instinct.

[CHAMP 347]

You are talking about taking a set shot which is easier again. (except for some exceptions who overthing them and are more comfortable on the run)

No, the same applies to disposal in general play. It should become a matter of not having to think about what you're trying to do.

[CHAMP 347]

is it that easy ? Swan hasnt, Priddis hasnt, Carrazo hasnt ( although in fairness he is better than he was).

Hawthorn made it known that they wanted elite kicks of the footballs - there arent too many wasters of the ball at the Hawks

Yep, and mostly left-footers who, to a man, run on arc and whose kicking action isn't 'straight back and straight through' but slightly tangential.

[The Big Ticket 94]

Howe's kicking has improved out of sight.

It has, but he was always a very good field kick. He has clearly worked on his set shots during the offseason and is now fairly reliable.

[DeeSpencer 25,471]

is it that easy ? Swan hasnt, Priddis hasnt, Carrazo hasnt ( although in fairness he is better than he was).

Hawthorn made it known that they wanted elite kicks of the footballs - there arent too many wasters of the ball at the Hawks

I think all those guys efficiency has gone up. I think you underrate Swan's kicking a bit. He's pretty good these days. Carrazo is very safe with the ball. I don't watch a lot of Priddis. Although I'm confident West Coast beat Port last week if Priddis isn't KO'ed.