I think you fail to recognise the additions to the regular 22, and the deletions from the regular 22.

Evans, Howe, Nicholson, Gawn, Tapscott, Blease have all debuted and played mutliple games.

Other youngsters such as Strauss, Watts, Gysberts, Jurrah, Maric, McKenzie, Trengove and Scully have got multipl games into them.

This is not a normal AFL side.

Our supporters often overlook how young our players are and how many of them there are, expecting them to outperform seasoned opposition.

It is simply not reasonable.

Mate It is DB's plan.

He has been the architect of our current situation.

His coaching panel

His team selection / recruitment

We have a dream draw this year

and in IMO we are playing worse than last year, we have not taken it up to any of the better teams this year.

We either win against the bottom 4 - 5 sides or lose badly against the rest and little in between.

It is put up or shut up time for me.

He has 6 weeks left for mine.

3 wins and a competive result against the others is the minium for me.

I am tired of the youth excuss!

Again...many here just presume we'll make that 10. Im not actually convinced. We have some hard and draining games immediatedly ahead against Geelong, Carlton and WestCoast. before the supposedly lighter trot to the finish. I see two danger games; against the Toiges and beleive it or not the Surfer Boys in the last round. They are growing bit by bit. If Collingwood are the benchmark then they did far better than us.

Im not counting anything as a given and only an idiot would when comes to Melbourne as we simply dont have a track record to hang anything on.

Id like us to win all othe games we can. I dont actually like losing, am just used to it.

So..for the sake of discussion lets suppose we only come away with 9. Is that Deans death sentence ? The big names many want will simply not be available. The tried and tested hope and saviour wont be coming. But do you persevere with what you know even though you just know exactly where youre going ...i.e..nowhere. Or do we go to the well again just in the manner that even Geelongn did and possiblyt the Doggies are seriously considering ?

Many here dont rate Laidley and thats ok, I do. Id seek his interest. Id be looking around to see whos the next wonder boy off the ranks as well. Theres a handful. Sanderson is often mentioned in despatches.

who else ?

But do you persevere with what you know even though you just know exactly where youre going ...i.e..nowhere.

As one of the few posters here who was actually there in 1964, do you know how long I've been listening to these crap promises ?

We have not been a benchmark in this competition since Round 8 1965 when Norm Smith was sacked. In the 46 years since, we have not finished top once, we have not even been an acknowledged threat, albeit having some moderate success under Northey & Danners. I am sick of being patient, I am sick of 5 year plans which amount to zilch, I am sick of lame objectives "our aim is to win more quarters" or even lamer excuses "I didn't see that coming". Enough already with the patient, non-critical support. Look at Carlton & Rattan - he's done a good job, but he is being assessed on a stretching target. It's time to toughen up, this is the big time.

Bailey to get offered a contract extension if we win 10 games, according to Gerard Healey via a source.

I can't see us beating Carlton or West Coast so it seems he could get an extension with a couple of soft wins to end the season.

If the source is correct, great news for Bailey fans.

Dean Bailey has gone as far as he can with our player list imo. What good would it do for the club to have a waisted year. If our board takes the easy way out and extends his contract then we are just back to having useless leadership at the club. However I will say that it is not all Bailey the board needs to tell Connolly that all positions in the football department should be questioned.

I am not having a go at Jim Stynes. However I would like to think that Jim could once again show leadership and make the ruthless decisions we require if we are to win another PREMIERSHIP.

Dean Bailey has gone as far as he can with our player list imo. What good would it do for the club to have a waisted year. If our board takes the easy way out and extends his contract then we are just back to having useless leadership at the club. However I will say that it is not all Bailey the board needs to tell Connolly that all positions in the football department should be questioned.

I am not having a go at Jim Stynes. However I would like to think that Jim could once again show leadership and make the ruthless decisions we require if we are to win another PREMIERSHIP.

So true - an extension (which would make it a 6 year appointment !) on the performance thus far is a cop-out

But do you persevere with what you know even though you just know exactly where youre going ...i.e..nowhere.

As one of the few posters here who was actually there in 1964, do you know how long I've been listening to these crap promises ?

We have not been a benchmark in this competition since Round 8 1965 when Norm Smith was sacked. In the 46 years since, we have not finished top once, we have not even been an acknowledged threat, albeit having some moderate success under Northey & Danners. I am sick of being patient, I am sick of 5 year plans which amount to zilch, I am sick of lame objectives "our aim is to win more quarters" or even lamer excuses "I didn't see that coming". Enough already with the patient, non-critical support. Look at Carlton & Rattan - he's done a good job, but he is being assessed on a stretching target. It's time to toughen up, this is the big time.

This is interesting isnt it. For a number of reasons. Its in stark contrast to us where we are arguably either going nowhere, backwards or round and round , certainly not onwards and upward and yet nothings a certainlty at carlton and Ratten knows it. The bar is set ever so differently there. The other is Carlton actually expect success as opposed to the position we take is one of hope ( often abject )

I often wonder why we bother calling ourselves Demons.... Theres a certain expectation of menace and destruction about them. Im sure no other team particularly finds the thought of games against us as omenous and it sickens me to be of that realisation.

At times i honestly wonder whether this is really an AFL club ( with serious intent ) or Benevolent Playgroup with some form of Sporting Existentialist Beliefs !

But do you persevere with what you know even though you just know exactly where youre going ...i.e..nowhere.

As one of the few posters here who was actually there in 1964, do you know how long I've been listening to these crap promises ?

We have not been a benchmark in this competition since Round 8 1965 when Norm Smith was sacked. In the 46 years since, we have not finished top once, we have not even been an acknowledged threat, albeit having some moderate success under Northey & Danners. I am sick of being patient, I am sick of 5 year plans which amount to zilch, I am sick of lame objectives "our aim is to win more quarters" or even lamer excuses "I didn't see that coming". Enough already with the patient, non-critical support. Look at Carlton & Rattan - he's done a good job, but he is being assessed on a stretching target. It's time to toughen up, this is the big time.

I was there Mate and the journey has been painfull.

It is time the MFC showed tough leadership on and off the field.

Unless we have a good last 6 games

In 2012 IMO it is time for:

- a new coach and Panel

_ a new Football manager.

- a new captain, if Green was not the captain would he have been dropped?

- a high draft pick/ picks used to get a quality key forward.

- a new coach and Panel

_ a new Football manager.

- a new captain, if Green was not the captain would he have been dropped?

- a high draft pick/ picks used to get a quality key forward.

I'll go with this...

read and seconded !!

This is interesting isnt it. For a number of reasons. Its in stark contrast to us where we are arguably either going nowhere, backwards or round and round , certainly not onwards and upward and yet nothings a certainlty at carlton and Ratten knows it. The bar is set ever so differently there. The other is Carlton actually expect success as opposed to the position we take is one of hope ( often abject )

I often wonder why we bother calling ourselves Demons.... Theres a certain expectation of menace and destruction about them. Im sure no other team particularly finds the thought of games against us as omenous and it sickens me to be of that realisation.

What fluff. Were Carlton expecting success throughout the last decade when they were broke paupers notching up consecutive wooden spoons?? I dont think so. And given where they have been and what they have spent to date (thanks tricky dicky) they would certainly be expecting things to happen. They are at least 2 years ahead of us in development. They have recruited a once in a generation midfielder in Judd, they have had large financial contributions from the paper king and massively cooked the rules on the salary cap. If anything the urge for success is that they have choked when the September pressure is on. The monkey is on their back to make top 4 and actually win a final let alone challenge for the flag. And they are still well off there. Up until this year they have been downhill skiers.

Carlton have as much hope as we do to get success. They still lack the ingredients. And there are still questoins over Ratten. If he does not win a final this year, he can kiss an extension goodbye.

MFC brainstrust are realistic about where MFC is and what it will take to challenge. Our talented list is younger than Carltons as it came through. There is no Judd as the shining light. And at the moment a futre shining light, Scully could be prized away from inept AFL rules. We dont have a Dick Pratt and we dont have the oppportunity to smudge a ridiculous salary package to a star player. If you actually spoke to some of the key people at the Club or have attend their discussions at suppporter groups you may actually understand what really is going on rather than feeding your misconceptions.

As it is, MFC has a harder road than most clubs for flagf success. The road is chock of challenges and risks. To win a flag MFC needs to navigate all these issues successfully. It does not just rest on the naive perception of "hope" or expectations.

and Im accused of fluff..

What fluff. Were Carlton expecting success throughout the last decade when they were broke paupers notching up consecutive wooden spoons?? I dont think so. And given where they have been and what they have spent to date (thanks tricky dicky) they would certainly be expecting things to happen. They are at least 2 years ahead of us in development. They have recruited a once in a generation midfielder in Judd, they have had large financial contributions from the paper king and massively cooked the rules on the salary cap. If anything the urge for success is that they have choked when the September pressure is on. The monkey is on their back to make top 4 and actually win a final let alone challenge for the flag. And they are still well off there. Up until this year they have been downhill skiers.

Carlton have as much hope as we do to get success. They still lack the ingredients. And there are still questoins over Ratten. If he does not win a final this year, he can kiss an extension goodbye.

MFC brainstrust are realistic about where MFC is and what it will take to challenge. Our talented list is younger than Carltons as it came through. There is no Judd as the shining light. And at the moment a futre shining light, Scully could be prized away from inept AFL rules. We dont have a Dick Pratt and we dont have the oppportunity to smudge a ridiculous salary package to a star player. If you actually spoke to some of the key people at the Club or have attend their discussions at suppporter groups you may actually understand what really is going on rather than feeding your misconceptions.

As it is, MFC has a harder road than most clubs for flagf success. The road is chock of challenges and risks. To win a flag MFC needs to navigate all these issues successfully. It does not just rest on the naive perception of "hope" or expectations.

RR How can you be so confident in saying "Our Talented List"

IMO we have a number of young players who showed they were good players in junior ranks.

The transition is not guaranteed )

A select few have shown they have the talent to be A graders in the future.

We have 3 -4 Senior A graders, the rest are B grade at best.

I have seen little that suggests to me we have " a Talented List"

Our performances suggest to me that Most MFC supporters over rate "Our List"

RR How can you be so confident in saying "Our Talented List"

IMO we have a number of young players who showed they were good players in junior ranks.

The transition is not guaranteed )

A select few have shown they have the talent to be A graders in the future.

We have 3 -4 Senior A graders, the rest are B grade at best.

I have seen little that suggests to me we have " a Talented List"

Our performances suggest to me that Most MFC supporters over rate "Our List"

Easy. Because in glimpse of their short careers today the following are stepping up to the plate Watts, Scully,Trengove, Frawley, Garland, Martin, Howe, Gysberts, Grimes, Gawn. But I can see a depth of talent that shows the promise of coming through in future years unlike alleged "up and comers" like Richmond. How many are lauding Hardwick and the Tigers? They have a good top six then it drops away.

Can you name the 3-4 senior A graders??? I cant. The contribution of the senior list (sans Jamar) has been awful. And our future does not rest with the hot cold mediocre stuff they have served up for too long. The reason we were in the hunt for the top 8 up to week ago was the under 23s.

If you havent seen anything to suggest that we have a "talented list" then either you dont go to games or see what you want to see and thats missing an awful lot. Your choice.

and Im accused of fluff..

Deep response. Well done.

As it is, MFC has a harder road than most clubs for flagf success. The road is chock of challenges and risks. To win a flag MFC needs to navigate all these issues successfully. It does not just rest on the naive perception of "hope" or expectations.

In this age of salary cap and the national draft (equalizers of the competition), if it is going to be harder for the MFC to win a flag than others, I may have to jump off and support someone else.....

Seriously, what a load of rubbish.

At least we are not broke like another couple of clubs.

We operate under the same restrictions as other clubs therefore our chances of success are equal to any other clubs (possibly excluding GC and GWS who have certain concessions that we do not).

On balance, MFC should have just as many opportunities as anyone else to be successful.

In this age of salary cap and the national draft (equalizers of the competition), if it is going to be harder for the MFC to win a flag than others, I may have to jump off and support someone else.....

Seriously, what a load of rubbish.

At least we are not broke like another couple of clubs.

We operate under the same restrictions as other clubs therefore our chances of success are equal to any other clubs (possibly excluding GC and GWS who have certain concessions that we do not).

On balance, MFC should have just as many opportunities as anyone else to be successful.

The fact is they dont. Have you ever taken the time to compare the turn over of clubs like Collingwood, WCE with paupers like North and MFC? Do you understand that they have allfunding to spend in areas where there is not salary caps etc?? Hmm

You must be in a dream if you think we are able to scoff at other Clubs who you believe are broke. Incredible. Just because we paid off the debt does not suddely mean voila we all of sudden profitable. MFC have yet to develop and foster a profitable and sustainable business model.Why do you think we sell games in the sapping conditions in Darwin?

But you are right MFC should have just as many opportunities as anyone else to be successful. The bald fact is it doesn't. Some of this is MFC's own legacy. Some of it is the AFL's meddling and patronising imposing of rules.

Can you explain to me how the AFL draw each year provides equal opportunity to each side to be successful?? And why clubs like Collingwood enjoy a largesse of MCG games with little interstate travel (eg Darwin, Cairns etc)??

3-4 senior A-Graders and the rest are B-grade?

Easy. Because in glimpse of their short careers today the following are stepping up to the plate Watts, Scully,Trengove, Frawley, Garland, Martin, Howe, Gysberts, Grimes, Gawn. But I can see a depth of talent that shows the promise of coming through in future years unlike alleged "up and comers" like Richmond. How many are lauding Hardwick and the Tigers? They have a good top six then it drops away.

Can you name the 3-4 senior A graders??? I cant. The contribution of the senior list (sans Jamar) has been awful. And our future does not rest with the hot cold mediocre stuff they have served up for too long. The reason we were in the hunt for the top 8 up to week ago was the under 23s.

If you havent seen anything to suggest that we have a "talented list" then either you dont go to games or see what you want to see and thats missing an awful lot. Your choice.

RR Judgement is a personal thing.

You think we have a "Talented list"

I believe the jury is still out.

The future will show one of us be correct I hope it is you.

The alternative is more of the last 40+ years.

PS question anything you like about me but please don't try to win the discussion with

"then either you dont go to games or see what you want to see and thats missing an awful lot".

it is not necessary.

RR Judgement is a personal thing.

You think we have a "Talented list"

I believe the jury is still out.

The future will show one of us be correct I hope it is you.

The alternative is more of the last 40+ years.

PS question anything you like about me but please don't try to win the discussion with

"then either you dont go to games or see what you want to see and thats missing an awful lot".

it is not necessary.

Can you explain why we mysteriously have 3-4 senior A graders and the rest B grade but you cant see we have a talented list?

For mine we have Jamar who is A grade when fit. The rest Green, Davey, Rivers and Moloney are C graders against class opposition and flat trackers against the weak sides. And for me our talent and hopes of moving forward are not there with them.

But do you persevere with what you know even though you just know exactly where youre going ...i.e..nowhere.

As one of the few posters here who was actually there in 1964, do you know how long I've been listening to these crap promises ?

We have not been a benchmark in this competition since Round 8 1965 when Norm Smith was sacked. In the 46 years since, we have not finished top once, we have not even been an acknowledged threat, albeit having some moderate success under Northey & Danners. I am sick of being patient, I am sick of 5 year plans which amount to zilch, I am sick of lame objectives "our aim is to win more quarters" or even lamer excuses "I didn't see that coming". Enough already with the patient, non-critical support. Look at Carlton & Rattan - he's done a good job, but he is being assessed on a stretching target. It's time to toughen up, this is the big time.

HaHa, WYL...

Can you explain why we mysteriously have 3-4 senior A graders and the rest B grade but you cant see we have a talented list?

For mine we have Jamar who is A grade when fit. The rest Green, Davey, Rivers and Moloney are C graders against class opposition and flat trackers against the weak sides. And for me our talent and hopes of moving forward are not there with them.

-RR I am getting lost in this discussion.

The simple fact is IMO we have only a few good senior players.

A few guys like Frawley who promised a lot.

A few juniors who show they will be long term good players.

The rest are either average or it is too early to to tell.

Can you give me any Idea when your "talented list" will show me they are the goods?

the buzz word for so long about Melbourne is "potential".. So much potential about our list. Then reality follows each and every year and the reality that follows seems alway sdisappointing.

The fact is they dont. Have you ever taken the time to compare the turn over of clubs like Collingwood, WCE with paupers like North and MFC? Do you understand that they have allfunding to spend in areas where there is not salary caps etc?? Hmm

You must be in a dream if you think we are able to scoff at other Clubs who you believe are broke. Incredible. Just because we paid off the debt does not suddely mean voila we all of sudden profitable. MFC have yet to develop and foster a profitable and sustainable business model.Why do you think we sell games in the sapping conditions in Darwin?

But you are right MFC should have just as many opportunities as anyone else to be successful. The bald fact is it doesn't. Some of this is MFC's own legacy. Some of it is the AFL's meddling and patronising imposing of rules.

Can you explain to me how the AFL draw each year provides equal opportunity to each side to be successful?? And why clubs like Collingwood enjoy a largesse of MCG games with little interstate travel (eg Darwin, Cairns etc)??

A couple of things:

If I am not mistaken, North Melbourne won a few premierships in the 1990's and had nowhere near the financial backing as some of the other clubs. They made it work. They are still making it work and they have had less draft picks than us, and many would argue that they are on par (if not below) where we are at in terms of resources. They are going OK. I would be pretty impressed if I was a North Supporter.

Our draw this year, despite being poor in terms of time slots on occasion, has (most would agree), been one of the best draws to allow a good performance that we could hope for. We played the bottom clubs twice mostly and we played a fair few of the interstate sides at home. It was our choice to play Darwin - so that does not count.

I don't believe that the AFL deliberately tries to screw us over. It (maybe) tries to encourage blockbuster games each year twice. Sometimes that is good (i.e. when Collingwood played Essendon twice each year when they were trash) and sometimes it wont help (i.e. when Essendon get better, it wont help pies).

I will also say I am sick of hearing excuses. Really sick of it. We need some mongrel, we need to stop accepting second best / mediocrity and we must strive to be ruthless.

(Yep - i'll take a bex and lie down....._)

the buzz word for so long about Melbourne is "potential".. So much potential about our list. Then reality follows each and every year and the reality that follows seems alway sdisappointing.

Careful you will be branded as a heretic!

A couple of things:

If I am not mistaken, North Melbourne won a few premierships in the 1990's and had nowhere near the financial backing as some of the other clubs. They made it work. They are still making it work and they have had less draft picks than us, and many would argue that they are on par (if not below) where we are at in terms of resources. They are going OK. I would be pretty impressed if I was a North Supporter.

Our draw this year, despite being poor in terms of time slots on occasion, has (most would agree), been one of the best draws to allow a good performance that we could hope for. We played the bottom clubs twice mostly and we played a fair few of the interstate sides at home. It was our choice to play Darwin - so that does not count.

I don't believe that the AFL deliberately tries to screw us over. It (maybe) tries to encourage blockbuster games each year twice. Sometimes that is good (i.e. when Collingwood played Essendon twice each year when they were trash) and sometimes it wont help (i.e. when Essendon get better, it wont help pies).

I will also say I am sick of hearing excuses. Really sick of it. We need some mongrel, we need to stop accepting second best / mediocrity and we must strive to be ruthless.

(Yep - i'll take a bex and lie down....._)

My God you Know that line!

My problem is you cannot buy them anymore

However I have switched to single malt.

Not as hard on the Kidneys.

A couple of things:

If I am not mistaken, North Melbourne won a few premierships in the 1990's and had nowhere near the financial backing as some of the other clubs. They made it work. They are still making it work and they have had less draft picks than us, and many would argue that they are on par (if not below) where we are at in terms of resources. They are going OK. I would be pretty impressed if I was a North Supporter.

North won two premierships (1996 and 1999) on the back of two of the greatest players to have ever pulled on the North jumper....Carey and Archer. They were well supported by a plethora of B graders. But that was 12 to 15 years, the whole financial dynamic of football has changed. The financial difference between the haves and the have nots continues to widen. All the football costs outside the salary cap are uncontrolled by the AFL and the richer clubs are able to buy, retain and develop the best. The poor live hand to mouth and play catch up where they fall further behind.

Maybe you should support North. They are crock as a Club. They wont make the finals, there best players are ageing and they will never seriously challenge in the foreseeable future. They are financial destitute with a crumbling supporter base and questions over there long term future. They only exist to provide air time for the TV rights. Not much to be impressed about.

Our draw this year, despite being poor in terms of time slots on occasion, has (most would agree), been one of the best draws to allow a good performance that we could hope for. We played the bottom clubs twice mostly and we played a fair few of the interstate sides at home. It was our choice to play Darwin - so that does not count.

Does it ever bother you that "our draw is the best that we could hope for" and its looks terrible against the gilded draw of CCollingwood. Darwin indeed does count. MFC need money to stay afloat and have to sell games to Darwin to do this. Yes it is our choice but do you think we should reduce our coaching staff by 2 people to cover the loss of revenue? We would have even fewer coaches and football staff than the Pies, Essendon and Eagles.

I don't believe that the AFL deliberately tries to screw us over. It (maybe) tries to encourage blockbuster games each year twice. Sometimes that is good (i.e. when Collingwood played Essendon twice each year when they were trash) and sometimes it wont help (i.e. when Essendon get better, it wont help pies).

Its not a matter of the AFL deliberately boning us but the AFL draw unevenly favours some clubs over others. So this is just one example where sides dont have an equal opportunity that you claim.

I will also say I am sick of hearing excuses. Really sick of it. We need some mongrel, we need to stop accepting second best / mediocrity and we must strive to be ruthless.

People who say they are sick of excuses are generally those that dont understand the reasons why the outcomes are as they are. I love the cliche of "accepting second best/mediocrity". Can you names of MFC personnel who have stated that they have done that. For most of the past 46 years MFC have not been good enough to challenge the best. The clean out of list over the ppast four years and the recruitment of young talent is our best chance to build to make a challenge in future years. But it is difficult because of the financial and other obstacles MFC have to overcome which are not as difficult for some other clubs.

(Yep - i'll take a bex and lie down....._)

Hope you get better.