Now here is a statt for you billy, Both have won multiple Premierships while we have won ZERO.

I would trade that for "a strong sense of professionalism" any day of the last 40+ years.

Classic case where a stat means JS.

Bailey inherited a shite list and is in his 4th season. Don't think any of the great Coaches would have delivered us a flag in that time with the list we had.

I was more impressed with Sheahan having a crack at Bailey's lame excuses after the game. Hearing Bailey use an excuse like "Hawthorn are a pretty good team. They'll be a top four team..." is pathetic to say the least. No, I didn't expect him to get stuck in to the players, but it wouldn't have hurt to say that the performance was unacceptable.

I wouldn't be impressed with anything Sheahan says or does. He is simply disappointed that his so called paper did not get any sensationlist sound grabs from the press conference. The media love that sort of crap, look at all the who ha with Brent Harvey and Jason Gram this week.

Dean Bailey is extremely measured in what he says after matches. He treats a loss exactly the same as a win, he gives the media nothing and they do not like it. It is one of his strengths. I assure you that behind closed doors he would let the players know about his feelings towards their insipid performance.

Dont you think that the players are advised this face to face and at training and at team meetings? How are they being protected from external expectations? They face it from the media (just read Sheahan), they face it from the supporters that confront them every time they step into the public. I dont think its appropriate for the coach at a post match presser to shame, criticise or belittle individual or team performance.

BTW, Brent Harvey's post match burst was absolutely slayed in the press in the following days as being ungracious, unprofessional and ill thought. His comments may have been apt. They were delivered in the wrong forum.

"Someone at the club needed to say it. There's no one better to say it than the man himself. All we'd heard from the FD was how great a side the Hawks are. "

I took that statement to infer that FD should have made critical comments about the performance.

BTW, I think thats why DB is so dead pan at pressers. He does not give any oxygen to a media pack that is ready to jump on any comment that is remotely critical and make a bonfire out of it. I am sure DB is not so reserved behind closed doors with the players.

Again where in any of my posts have I asked to shame or belittle an individual member of the side??? Comparing what I'm saying to what Brent Harvey had to say is laughable.

Jim Stynes shouldn't have to come out & make a statement like that. I'm glad he did, because it is at least a message from the club to acknowledge what we witnessed on Sunday is unacceptable. I am not asking Dean Bailey to criticize, belittle or shame any individual member of the team. What I am asking is that a member of the FD take ownership & stand up publicly. Perhaps the message behind closed doors to the players is not getting through.

There is no shame in losing when you have played your guts out. Being rolled the way we were & then to hear that Bailey didn't see it coming & that Hawthorn were too good is just embarrassing. It sends the wrong message to members & the footy public. Jim Stynes has had to come out & clean up after him. If he shows that its not acceptable then the players have to tow the line, its not really that hard a concept to understand. If he takes some sort of ownership publicly of what occurs the players have to respond, its called being open & transparent.

Again where in any of my posts have I asked to shame or belittle an individual member of the side??? Comparing what I'm saying to what Brent Harvey had to say is laughable.

Jim Stynes shouldn't have to come out & make a statement like that. I'm glad he did, because it is at least a message from the club to acknowledge what we witnessed on Sunday is unacceptable. I am not asking Dean Bailey to criticize, belittle or shame any individual member of the team. What I am asking is that a member of the FD take ownership & stand up publicly. Perhaps the message behind closed doors to the players is not getting through.

There is no shame in losing when you have played your guts out. Being rolled the way we were & then to hear that Bailey didn't see it coming & that Hawthorn were too good is just embarrassing. It sends the wrong message to members & the footy public. Jim Stynes has had to come out & clean up after him. If he shows that its not acceptable then the players have to tow the line, its not really that hard a concept to understand. If he takes some sort of ownership publicly of what occurs the players have to respond, its called being open & transparent.

Why, because we were totally outplayed by a team far superior than us? When was our last performance like that?

Mate, you will put your own "spin" on this no matter what anyone says . Read posts in their context and stop quoting them selectively. Your character assassinations on this forum are deplorable and should be dealt with. Your "Rah Rah" reference to me was petty and unnecessary. You have a docket as long as my arm. RR, by no means do you have a mortgage on the truth. Quite the opposite in fact. Give others a go and stop being so bloody belligerent, even if people have a divergent opinion to yours. God forbid.

FWIW, Iva you have come onto this thread attacking me and making references at me being a politician.The joke of it is that I complemented MFC about their media management by going through Stynes and then you came on said Jimmy Stynes was the one to make the statement. The Rah Rah was in reference to your unnecessary snipe and then agreement with my comment.

If anyone has resorted to spin Iva, its your tender self. I note your past hissy fits had resulted in your promising never to post here again. I hope we are not witnessing a similar meltdown.

Interesting way of putting it, but I think Stynes, etc know that while Bailey may have been outcoached, the issues were more onfield. If the Pres is of this opinion, the coach is a safe as houses (for the moment). We have shown that we can be ruthless with list changes, noone of the players are safe if they perform like that on a regular basis.

Agree I was not suggesting Bailey would go before the end of the year.

But continuing efforts like Sunday will be his death knell.

Loosing is one thing last sunday is in another league.

wtf is that supposed to mean

he can keep his 'concerns' to himself

chill out mate he was asked a question and answered it, as thats his role "on the couch". He does have a point! weren't you concerned? i was!!

Classic case where a stat means JS.

Bailey inherited a shite list and is in his 4th season. Don't think any of the great Coaches would have delivered us a flag in that time with the list we had.

Not suggesting they would have, you made the comment you would not have Malthouse or Sheedy because of their attitude.

I will put up with their attitude to win a flag, with the Cup in our hands I do not care if Malthouse is the biggest Shite in history!

Again where in any of my posts have I asked to shame or belittle an individual member of the side??? Comparing what I'm saying to what Brent Harvey had to say is laughable.

I have answered where I took it from. I used Brent Harvey as an example of being publicly critical of players that does not work and was not comparing it to what you said.

Jim Stynes shouldn't have to come out & make a statement like that. I'm glad he did, because it is at least a message from the club to acknowledge what we witnessed on Sunday is unacceptable. I am not asking Dean Bailey to criticize, belittle or shame any individual member of the team. What I am asking is that a member of the FD take ownership & stand up publicly. Perhaps the message behind closed doors to the players is not getting through.

Yes he indeed he should. This loss reflects on everyone at the Club. And Stynes as he does well has managed the message really well. The fact of the matter that everyone wears a loss like that. Its not the ownership of one individual in the FD.

However behind closed doors the examination should be thorough and ruthless.

There is no shame in losing when you have played your guts out. Being rolled the way we were & then to hear that Bailey didn't see it coming & that Hawthorn were too good is just embarrassing. It sends the wrong message to members & the footy public. Jim Stynes has had to come out & clean up after him. If he shows that its not acceptable then the players have to tow the line, its not really that hard a concept to understand. If he takes some sort of ownership publicly of what occurs the players have to respond, its called being open & transparent.

A post match press conference is not the place for that to happen. Stynes did very well passing appropriate comments to reflect the internal and external frustrarion and disappointment of the performance. Stynes and McLardy may well have spoken to the group/individuals about how appalling and unacceptable performance was. And good on them if they have.

If the players have not grasp the necessary requirements without contrived statements at a media circus after the game then they never will and should be moved on.

Not suggesting they would have, you made the comment you would not have Malthouse or Sheedy because of their attitude.

I will put up with their attitude to win a flag, with the Cup in our hands I do not care if Malthouse is the biggest Shite in history!

Did not make that statement at all - very badly misquoted. I made the comment that Bailey gives us nothing at pressers, and I think this is professional. Malthouse and Sheedy are exactly the same.

I wouldn't be impressed with anything Sheahan says or does. He is simply disappointed that his so called paper did not get any sensationlist sound grabs from the press conference. The media love that sort of crap, look at all the who ha with Brent Harvey and Jason Gram this week.

Dean Bailey is extremely measured in what he says after matches. He treats a loss exactly the same as a win, he gives the media nothing and they do not like it. It is one of his strengths. I assure you that behind closed doors he would let the players know about his feelings towards their insipid performance.

Mate I suggest he changes tack because he is loosing the masses who hold the membership tickets.

And down the track that has an effect like it or not.

What you are seeing from Sheahan is a view held by quite a lot of Mebourne members that I know.

I would take, in a heartbeat, a [censored] of a coach that showed he had some idea on how to slow down the breach in the wall, that we had AGAIN on the w/e.

Even the great Jimma has stated in no uncertain term, that the Hawks game was totally unacceptable.

Have Lyon, Barassi, Stynes etc been quiet about where we seem to be at? These guys don't accept non performers anymore and nor should we. These guys have also been at the coalface and I fully respect their opinions.

Jayzuz it's time we gave up with the excuses and started becoming ruthless. Players are looking for and needing guidance and for 4 years now we have been seriously underwhelming in this area.

Right now we need EVERYONE to come out and say this is [censored], we are not that bad, we need a massive change of attitude and a sense of urgency. Enough of the "give us time" crap. It has to happen now, not next week, month, or year.

I don't give a s*$t that we have a young inexperienced side, I expect effort, chasing, imrovement and ruthlessness.

Nice people rarely win such contests. Get tough, get arrogant, get fit, get a 2nd and 3rd gameplan, plus get wussy people out of the club.

Bailey is a dead set worry to me. Some of the players are in a similar place.

It's simply not acceptable that we have performances like that dished up like last w/e. Anyone that says otherwise is not living in the real world. Defending crap like that just shows what sort of character some people have.

I would take, in a heartbeat, a [censored] of a coach that showed he had some idea on how to slow down the breach in the wall, that we had AGAIN on the w/e.

Even the great Jimma has stated in no uncertain term, that the Hawks game was totally unacceptable.

Have Lyon, Barassi, Stynes etc been quiet about where we seem to be at? These guys don't accept non performers anymore and nor should we. These guys have also been at the coalface and I fully respect their opinions.

Jayzuz it's time we gave up with the excuses and started becoming ruthless. Players are looking for and needing guidance and for 4 years now we have been seriously underwhelming in this area.

Right now we need EVERYONE to come out and say this is [censored], we are not that bad, we need a massive change of attitude and a sense of urgency. Enough of the "give us time" crap. It has to happen now, not next week, month, or year.

I don't give a s*$t that we have a young inexperienced side, I expect effort, chasing, imrovement and ruthlessness.

Nice people rarely win such contests. Get tough, get arrogant, get fit, get a 2nd and 3rd gameplan, plus get wussy people out of the club.

Bailey is a dead set worry to me. Some of the players are in a similar place.

It's simply not acceptable that we have performances like that dished up like last w/e. Anyone that says otherwise is not living in the real world. Defending crap like that just shows what sort of character some people have.

Ok, So you've named Bailey as a worry, name your players...

Did not make that statement at all - very badly misquoted. I made the comment that Bailey gives us nothing at pressers, and I think this is professional. Malthouse and Sheedy are exactly the same.

Ok Then I am wrong. Would you take malthouse as a coach? I would in the first week of October 2011.

Classic case where a stat means JS.

Bailey inherited a shite list and is in his 4th season. Don't think any of the great Coaches would have delivered us a flag in that time with the list we had.

No-one is suggesting he should have won a flag - what is clear is that Sunday's effort and indeed the lead up to it throughout the whole preseason is unacceptable - absence of strategy, absence of nous, absence of any ability to react - and yes it is his 4th year ! We have a right to expect better B)

Ok Then I am wrong. Would you take malthouse as a coach? I would in the first week of October 2011.

Hard call. Of course you would, after their 2 GF losses to Brisbane it would have been a totally different answer. But...I haven't seen what Bailey can do in the first week of October. Until then, he is our coach, Malthouse isn't, so I support the man in charge. I've seen how his game plan can destroy teams, so I've got confidence.

I can't believe some of the lame excuses here. Jamar is becoming so predictable. Nearly every tap out he got went within a 2 metre arc of him. Hawk players read it perfectly every time to shark the ball or suffocate our players with close pressure. Why not once in a while just set up different with perhaps a good old fashioned fisting of the ball forward? No variety in clearance play at all. For that I blame the coaching staff.

No-one is suggesting he should have won a flag - what is clear is that Sunday's effort and indeed the lead up to it throughout the whole preseason is unacceptable - absence of strategy, absence of nous, absence of any ability to react - and yes it is his 4th year ! We have a right to expect better B)

He's taken us from 8 wins for his entire first 2 seasons, to 8 wins in his 3rd season. We are 1/2 and 1 so far, and I expect that to be 2 1/2 and 1 in a fortnight.

At the end of the year, if we haven't won 8 1/2 or more, then I will sit back and say that we probably would've expected better, but I'm not sure if that is totally the coaches fault.

In 2012 I wont expect performances like Sunday. I expect one or two more this year.

Hard call. Of course you would, after their 2 GF losses to Brisbane it would have been a totally different answer. But...I haven't seen what Bailey can do in the first week of October. Until then, he is our coach, Malthouse isn't, so I support the man in charge. I've seen how his game plan can destroy teams, so I've got confidence.

Ok Fair comment.

I guess nothing succeedes like success.

Ten goal win next sunday and he is the flavour of the month again.

He will of course rise or fall on the teams performance.

And he has his team now not leftovers from ND.

Rhino and Snoopy have both posted excellent views and analysis over the last day or so and much of what they say succinctly explains why our expectations should be tempered. Their statistical facts are compelling. But I don't lose sight of the fact that footy isn't played on a whiteboard with a calculator in hand.

I'm sick of aplogising for soft and lazy performances from senior players. I'm sick of watching players that don't like getting their hands dirty. I'm sick of a coach that incessantly talks of "winning more quarters". I'm sick of the fact that we have more inside 50's against us than any other team and have less forward 50 entries than any other team. I'm sick of a coach that has no strategy that is capable of stopping momentum. I'm sick of a team that loses its structure so badly in the face of a 'run on' that the tactics employed help keep the ball in the opposition's forward 50.

I appreciate that games of footy are won in the midfield, always have been and always will, and that we have no midfield stars, but I don't appreciate players that have no appetite for the contest. The reality is that our team looks like one of the worst drilled teams in the AFL. It's one thing to focus more on player development than gameday strategy, as per Todd Viney's recent article, because we're mindful of our youthful list, but what sort of player development is gained from humiliating team performances ? With the advent of zones, presses, run and spread, and the guarding of space it seems to have escaped Bailey that the best teams still value 'man on man' footy. The defensive aspect of our play is pitiful.

The reality is that until Scully, Trengove, McKenzie, and Gysbert have 60-80 games under their belt we're going to have days where we really struggle against the better teams. No ground breaking news there. But there's struggling and there's being inept/uncompetitive. I can accept the former, but not the latter.

It's Bailey's 4th year and there's still no irrefutable evidence that he can counter the opposition's gameplan. Gerard Healy raised valid concerns about Bailey's coaching in a recent article.

All good and well, but honestly, what would constitute irrefutable evidence..?

Coaches in the AFL rarely get to build a list from the ground up & take it to a premiership, because often the panic button is pressed before they get a real chance to show their ability with a capable side.

I think we were outmatched from the start and he showed some coaching ability to get us to take over the game in the 2nd quarter, capitalising on the hawks inability to score goals, albeit briefly.

And it's not unlike Gerard Healy to criticise melbourne...

Ok Fair comment.

I guess nothing succeedes like success.

Ten goal win next sunday and he is the flavour of the month again.

He will of course rise or fall on the teams performance.

And he has his team now not leftovers from ND.

His team have played 2 games together.

He's taken us from 8 wins for his entire first 2 seasons, to 8 wins in his 3rd season. We are 1/2 and 1 so far, and I expect that to be 2 1/2 and 1 in a fortnight.

At the end of the year, if we haven't won 8 1/2 or more, then I will sit back and say that we probably would've expected better, but I'm not sure if that is totally the coaches fault.

In 2012 I wont expect performances like Sunday. I expect one or two more this year.

Mate you are not making my day, I do not think we will win every game but two more like sunday!

Do not think there is enough single malt in Scotland to heal my wounds.

I was more impressed with Sheahan having a crack at Bailey's lame excuses after the game. Hearing Bailey use an excuse like "Hawthorn are a pretty good team. They'll be a top four team..." is pathetic to say the least. No, I didn't expect him to get stuck in to the players, but it wouldn't have hurt to say that the performance was unacceptable.

Pathetic and unacceptable, well said.

Good to see the coach and captain praise the hawks. What a joke!!!! FFS bite the bullet and pi## Bailey off. Get a stand in coach for the rest of the year and go hard after either Malthouse or Roos (Roos may be able to take over now). Even if we win against the lions and GCS BIG DEAL they are crap sides.

His team have played 2 games together.

Thats not true billy the majority have been together longer than two games.

Mate you are not making my day, I do not think we will win every game but two more like sunday!

Do not think there is enough single malt in Scotland to heal my wounds.

Giving you plenty of warning to find some!

I think Collingwood will humiliate us QB game, may even be twice this year by them.

I'm going to wash my mouth out now.