Does anyone have who we picked up for jolly in the draft, this has got me interested! If they have turned out to be a real good player great.

Lynden Dunn

Lynden Dunn

In a perfect world I would pick jolly before dunn at this stage.

I'll stand by my statement that at the end of 04 we would have maximised a return for white.

Exactly who were we going to trade White to at the end of 2004?

Exactly who were we going to trade White to at the end of 2004?

Syd, Ess, Coll and geelong? I think all of these were looking for rucks around this time. My point is that we would have been better to trade off and still have a good player to show for it rather then next to nothing in 08, 07 was nothing special and 06 not fantastic. How many B+F did he win? A player of his caibre should have done more. He was never the same player after his shin issues, sad but true.

Looks like I touch a raw nerve with this one but the fact is I don't believe white was a great team player, maybe a great player in a team..........(Be Gentle!)

Thats 4 heartland donatations Good Call - Rhino, what are you like at poker???

Diabolical B)

I really don't remember jeff white being the player that led us to the top of the ladder.

And you are prepared to back your memory on Jolly?

It was a hard running midfield under ratten from the side of the ground I was on.

The "hard running midfield" revolved around around Scott Thompson and Jeff White. When Thompson got injured and White began to tire from carrying the ruck where was our "hard running" midfield????? All outside receivers (bar Junior)

I'll stand by my statement that at the end of 04 we would have maximised a return for white.

Well done. But you have no idea how it would be achieved!

Like I said earlier I might be biased a little but for me a good ruckman needs to be doing the hard things, filling holes and doing 1%'ers just like PJ made a name for himself last year.

The actual hard thing a ruckman needs to do is to win the ruck and give his players best use of the ball. In 2004, White did that in spades.

PJ is a 200cm rruck-rover that cant ruck and plays 2nd fiddle to Jamar who I dont rate either. And BTW for someone that loves "bash and crash" ruckman.....PJ is not one.

Re Jolly's 04 again his 1st half was good by my memmory and thought at the time that Jamar was tested in the second half to see if he was up to it, which I still don't think he was but was lucky jolly went. From my memory there were at least 6 clubs that were chaising a good #1 ruck and melbourne was seen to have 1xAA, 1xA and 1xB.

If you cant remember White's season, I dont hold out much hope for you memory discharge above. BTW Jolly was injured early in 2004 so his time off the field was as productive as time on the field. And your just making up your last sentence. Jolly was a C grader and Jamar was a D grader. And name the six clubs??? Why would MFC trade an AA ruckman given what they were left with???

This is hind site but surly a good midfield trade for white and keeping jolly would have us in a better position now?

Its hindsight and it lacks any wisdom. Who was prepared to give a Pick No 1 to 2 for an AA ruckman? If a fringe sulker like Jolly was worth pick 15, then what was White worth?

Does anyone have who we picked up for jolly in the draft, this has got me interested! If they have turned out to be a real good player great

Moloney

Syd, Ess, Coll and geelong? I think all of these were looking for rucks around this time. My point is that we would have been better to trade off and still have a good player to show for it rather then next to nothing in 08, 07 was nothing special and 06 not fantastic. How many B+F did he win? A player of his caibre should have done more. He was never the same player after his shin issues, sad but true.

Looks like I touch a raw nerve with this one but the fact is I don't believe white was a great team player, maybe a great player in a team..........(Be Gentle!)

Geelong went for an underperforming Ottens and gave picks 12 and 16. What did Sydney have to give beyond pick 15 without trading one of their stars? Collingwood had Fraser and were not in the market. Essendon had David Hille coming through.

The points you are missing are:

1. We had no need to trade White as he was critical to a tilt at the flag they MFC were seeking to undertake at the time. They would have floundered, had they relied on Jolly and Jamar in 2005.

2. There was no Club able or willing to stump up the draft picks to trade for White.

The only basis for your opinion is 5 years of mottled hindsight and a bizarre understanding of rucking and ruckwork. You need to assess decisions on the basis of what was actually occurring at the time

Whether you think White is a great player or not is not relevant to the whether MFC should have traded him. And the fact is White was AA ruckman 2 years after shin splints sad but true. And BTW, you can recover from shin splints.

Nor have you provided any factual evidence beyond "I think" so yours is a bad case of pot calling kettle black.

Are you prepared to bet $200 payable to the MFC as a donation if you are proven wrong? I am.

I am offering my opinion based on what I remember and am offering it as my opinion.

Unlike yourself I am not stating "I know", rather "I think", as you have pointed out.

You are offering your opinion as fact.

Boiling the kettle black! Get off your high horse Rhino.

Syd, Ess, Coll and geelong? I think all of these were looking for rucks around this time.

The argument isn't about what White did, it's about whether we could've traded him to our advantage at that time. There was enough uproar when we (correctly traded) Woey, there was no way we were going trade our reigning B&F in preference to Jolly unless there was a huge advantage ...

Sydney - that's who we traded Jolly to!!!!

Essendon - Already had Hille and they finished 2 places behind Sydney so the "huge advantage" would've been 2 picks earlier

Collingwood - already had Josh Fraser do you really think they would've traded their 1st round pick for White?

Geelong - traded for Brad Ottens that year!

I am offering my opinion based on what I remember and am offering it as my opinion.

Unlike yourself I am not stating "I know", rather "I think", as you have pointed out.

You are offering your opinion as fact.

Boiling the kettle black! Get off your high horse Rhino.

Thanks for your opinion.

Now are you in for the bet for the benefit of the Club?

Thanks for your opinion.

Now are you in for the bet for the benefit of the Club?

Thanks Rhino, but no thanks mate. As I have stated all along I remember Meesen getting two years, not willing to state this as fact, like yourself.

It seems the maximum benefit the club could receive out of this is me being correct and Meesen only being with us for one more year. (Joke, have not written this fella off yet!)

Fork and Rhino:

Meesen, Bell and Moloney are all contracted for 2010.

Fork and Rhino:

Meesen, Bell and Moloney are all contracted for 2010.

Thanks Fan, all I'm after is a source, can you point us in the right direction?

Both Newton and Meesen are contracted for 2010.

Someone would trade for Bell??? 4th/5th rounder??? Doubt it.

Yes, your probably right, but what I was doing was to setout to see where spaces would come from next off season prior to the drafts.

I now dissappointedly feel that both Newton & Meeson won't cut it, so, if so will be looked at come seasons end to make space on the list.

There is also ways to make players look to other pasture as well.

As far as Bell is concerned, i reckon he can't make the turn around in his career in a struggling team & needs a fresh start surrounded by confidence elsewhere.

Thanks Fan, all I'm after is a source, can you point us in the right direction?

Fan is the source.

Trade Jeff White at the end of 2004?

Excuse me, I had something crazy in my ear?!

We were top of the ladder 4 games out from the finals and we should have traded the AA ruckman?!

FFS people...get with it, or give it up.

As an aside, RR - We got Moloney in the Ottens deal, Pick 15, traded for Jolly got us Dunn. You can argue a causal relationship but Thompson for 12, 12 for Moloney.

Trade Jeff White at the end of 2004?

Excuse me, I had something crazy in my ear?!

We were top of the ladder 4 games out from the finals and we should have traded the AA ruckman?!

FFS people...get with it, or give it up.

As an aside, RR - We got Moloney in the Ottens deal, Pick 15, traded for Jolly got us Dunn. You can argue a causal relationship but Thompson for 12, 12 for Moloney.

I think we are missing the point a little. This is a discussion about our current list. I started by saying we stuffed up letting jolly go. the jeff white trade was a side note to this. My logic (Maybe a little out of the square) was that right now... Today.... Our list would be in a better position had have jolly stayed. Every ND and PSD and Rookie forum have had people calling for an extra ruck. My point is we had a very good one and let him go. My wife is a old sth girl and I have seen many games watching jolly develop and hurts to watch! Not often we see an ex mfc player do this (ignore that little turd at the crows), let alone a ruckman.

I don't see this happening at say the filth, essendon, carlton. Good ruckman is the hardest thing to find due to the time it generally takes to mature.

At the end of 04 was I the only one that was seeing the beginning of the end for jeff white? Must have been. The rule changes effectively made him redundant. I agree that the supporter back lash over trading white would have probably been too great but none the less I will stand by saying jolly should still be in the red and blue and we would be in a stronger position. I don't want to start looking at our #15 pick for him yet but in my eyes has a long way to go yet. in 2 yrs we should know weather Dunn was the right choice. Who knows had have jolly been given another year the issues may have been resolved and we would have one of the strongest ruck stocks in the comp! Granted we did do very well drafting PJ!

You have proven neither that MFC stuffed up in letting Jolly go or that it could have or should have traded Jeff White.

Its amazing how you were the only one that saw the beginning of the end of Jeff White. Dont flatter yourself. Even the experts could not have clearly assessed the changes the rule would have brought in.

Neither Carlton, Collingwood or Essendon in the same period of time have had one AA ruckman let alone 2 competent ruckman. If you want an example of this, check Freo and Brisbane where they had an established top line ruckman and younger ruckman wanted their chance. Even North have a similar predicament at the moment wanting to trade MacIntosh.

Hindsight is your only substantiation and even then you make a meal of what that can tell you.

And PJ was a great trade!!! He has had 4 years on the list and is not good enough to be No 1 ruck ahead of an ordinary ruckman in Jamar.

Neither Carlton, Collingwood or Essendon in the same period of time have had one AA ruckman let alone 2 competent ruckman. If you want an example of this, check Freo and Brisbane where they had an established top line ruckman and younger ruckman wanted their chance. Even North have a similar predicament at the moment wanting to trade MacIntosh.

A perfect exception to this is hawthorn with spida. He was their #1 by a mile yet they made the hard decision to develop young. Where did they finish this year again?

Youth should always be given opportunity over those past their best and but ignore the suggested jeff white trade for a moment.........

we would be better now have had jolly stayed regarless what your personal beliefs are with his attitude. If his attitude was so bad no way would have a club given a rd 1 pick for him! Therefore once again rather then in your words we don't even have a decent ruck, had have we kept jolly we would have at least 1 serviceable ruckman.

For whats its worth I think PJ falls into this as well. So that would have given us 2.

I think we are missing the point a little.

Agreed.

There are two ruckmen who sit at the top of the tree in the AFL at the moment. One plays for a team that finished 15th and the other for the team that finished 14th. The team that finished 15th this year won a flag two years ago and would have been a serious contender in 07 but for the fact that its elite midfield was decimated. And why did it finish 15th this year? Because its midfield was decimated.

I don't give a rats about ruckmen, in my opinion they are becoming less relevant as time goes on. The game, which was stoppage rich in 2006 when Sydney and WC slugged it out is being umpired away from that. Four boundry umpires mean ruckmen become less relevent. Ruckmen usually have poorer disposal than smaller players and therefore turn the ball over more; this is about the greatest sin in footy at the moment. Even the best ruckmen have a low percentage of hitouts to advantage. IMO as long as you have a ruckmen who stops the opposition ruckman from having a large number of effective hitouts that's all you need.

When people laud Cox and Sandilands they are usually thinking of their work around the ground, rarely the dominant tap work.

If WC had lost Cox instead of Judd, Cousins and Kerr for much of last season it would still have played finals.

Now I'm not saying it's to a teams disadvantage to have a player like Cox, clearly it isn't. But Cox is great because he is a ruckmen/midfielder. Midfields are where games are won and lost nowadays. We have a third world midfield and Prendergast has addressed that this year.

West Coast's fall from grace is instructive. If you have an exceptional midfield you win games. Hawthorn and Geelong proved this year that ruckmen are a nice garnish to a team. They are not steak and potatoes.

Paul Johnson, with his ground skills and kicking ability, might just prove to be quite valuable.

A perfect exception to this is hawthorn with spida. He was their #1 by a mile yet they made the hard decision to develop young. Where did they finish this year again?

Youth should always be given opportunity over those past their best and but ignore the suggested jeff white trade for a moment.........

we would be better now have had jolly stayed regarless what your personal beliefs are with his attitude. If his attitude was so bad no way would have a club given a rd 1 pick for him! Therefore once again rather then in your words we don't even have a decent ruck, had have we kept jolly we would have at least 1 serviceable ruckman.

For whats its worth I think PJ falls into this as well. So that would have given us 2.

Firstly, Hawthorn were in a rebuild process and Spida who was coming to the end of his career with his attitude problems and culture sores he created at the Club was traded to guess who?? He got pick 39 as 32/33 yo. Also Hawthorn did not have at that time a legitimate and competent young ruck in reserve.

White was 27yo, reigning AA ruckman (Hardly past its best ) in a side was seeking to actively challenge for a flag on finishing 8th following being on top at the end of round 14.

So its a completely different set of conditions and not applicable.

Jolly was p1$$ed off at game time at MFC. He showed it on the sidelines. He reflected in the way he played and made a public statements before he left MFC and publicly declared he wanted to leave. So its got nothing to do with my personal beliefs. It was the attitude he displayed at MFC. If you do the research, you will find that Sydney paid about "market" to get a 2nd ruckman which they desperately needed given Jason Ball was 33 and they wanted to have a crack at flag while they had players like Hall, O'Loughlin etc. near their prime.

MFC had two options at the time. Keep a sulking Jolly for another year while White was the lead ruckman and then have him depart to the PSD and MFC gets nothing. Or they could seek to get a trade for him now. And Sydney was the only club legitimately in the market for a ruckman and a trade was done.

As MFC were challenging for the finals, it would have football suicide to have sought a trade for an AA ruckman who was critical to that finals march particularly after the Club was reluctantly forced to enter a trade for its No 1 midfielder at the time in Scott Thompson. Had we traded White we may as well had looked at trading Neitz also. Because we would have jeopardised our tilt at a flag relying on two ruckman who were unable at the time to competently fulfil the ruck duties.

When you trade you trade to improve your list and opportunities based on what you know at that point in time and expect in the next year possible two. Its not feasible or reasonable to make assessments based on four years out at the exclusion of what is relevant or pertinent to the Club at that point in time.

A perfect exception to this is hawthorn with spida. He was their #1 by a mile yet they made the hard decision to develop young. Where did they finish this year again?

Youth should always be given opportunity over those past their best and but ignore the suggested jeff white trade for a moment.........

we would be better now have had jolly stayed regarless what your personal beliefs are with his attitude. If his attitude was so bad no way would have a club given a rd 1 pick for him! Therefore once again rather then in your words we don't even have a decent ruck, had have we kept jolly we would have at least 1 serviceable ruckman.

For whats its worth I think PJ falls into this as well. So that would have given us 2.

Hawthorn were not playing finals and spending a lot of time in the top 4 when they traded Spida.

Completely different scenario...other than they are both tall...

2004 we were 1st after Rd 18, 2005 we were 2nd after Rd 13, and in 2006 we were 3rd after Rd 20. Hawthorn were nowhere near there and only hindsight can tell us that trading our best ruckman was a good idea.

The simple fact is that we understandably thought we were closer to a flag than we were and no-one would have traded an AA ruckman in that frame of mind.

EVERY player on Melborune's list for the 2009 season.

41 Rohan Bail

3 Clint Bartram

6 Matthew Bate

21 Daniel Bell

43 Jamie Bennell

46 Sam Blease

32 Cameron Bruce

1 Simon Buckley

25 Kyle Cheney

36 Aaron Davey

14 Lynden Dunn

8 James Frawley

20 Colin Garland

18 Brad Green

16 Jack Grimes

40 Mark Jamar

39 Neville Jetta

11 Paul Johnson

2 Nathan Jones

Liam Jurrah

19 Addam Maric

34 Stefan Martin

23 James McDonald

5 Brock McLean

30 Tom McNamara

26 John Meesen

7 Brad Miller

22 Brent Moloney

10 Cale Morton

29 Michael Newton

15 Ricky Petterd

27 Jared Rivers

24 Russell Robertson

47 James Strauss

12 Colin Sylvia

37 Matthew Warnock

4 Jack Watts

31 Paul Wheatley

45 Matthew Whelan

33 Austin Wonaeamirri

42 Jake Spencer

44 Shane Valenti

35 Trent Zomer

Jordie McKenzie

Rhys Healey

Danny Hughes

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl...6-19769,00.html

Strauss at 47?

Blease at 46?

Bennell at 43?

Bail at 41?

Jetta at 39?

Wonna to 33?

Surely not?

I can't believe we are devoting a post to Jeff White and Darren Jolley in 2004.

Every time this is discussed people forget the issue - the introduction of the restriced centre circle.

Jeff White was the best ruckman in the league when he had a free run at the centre bounce.With that in mind the club let their tallest man go (Jolley) go .Three weeks later, the rules changed. White instantly became an average centre bounce ruckman - and Jolley's height became an asset.

The AFL was irresponsible changing that rule after the trade period. Would we have placed such faith in Jeff White's ability to carry the rucks - if we had known that he would have jump into monsters off only 3 or 4 steps for the rest of his career?

Whitey's gone. I don't think Jamar is up to it. PJ is a good utility tall and useful support ruckman. Meeson looks a waste of space. ....which leaves Spencer - who has something - but can't kick.

I know I have to put my disappointment that didn't at least rookie another this year behind me. As for Jeff White in 2004 -forget it and move on!

Three weeks later, the rules changed. White instantly became an average centre bounce ruckman - and Jolley's height became an asset.

Very good point, for some reason I thought that this rule was in for 04 but your right it was 05.

I did not mean to turn this into a white vs jolley debate I was trying to highlight the lack of depth in our rucks right now and if we had have been able to keep jolley and show the benifit our list would currently have, must have touched a raw nerve with my point of view. Anyhow your right lets move on from this as we don't have either jolley or white moving forward. Who knows spencer could emerge this year as the next big thing.

Also surely this years crop will not be in the 40's with their numbers? 9,13,17 are all available by this list so I would suggest atleast 2 of these will be taken. I don't think the #9 needs a year off (It's already had nearly a full season off!)

To get back to the point of this thread, our current list.

I heard a passing comment from Liam Pickering on SEN on Saturday morning with regard to third year rookies; something along the lines of clubs having to nominate third year rookies and that other clubs had the opportunity to object and therefore they had to go into the draft pool, or something like that.

Does anyone know the third year rookie rules?

Of our current rookies, I don't think Zomer or Valenti would bother other clubs unduly, but Spencer surely will. If, perforce, we have to elevate Spencer, we must find four free spots on our list at the end of next year.