Ray Biffin is right up there with Luke Ball and Henry Playfair for players with suitable names. Kind of like Detective Bookman the Library Cop or Mr. Cone the ice cream salesman.

How about we get 22 skillful and competent players who are tough at the ball and win the contested pill. That is what a tough nut is all about.

I do know why we are lauded MFC tough nuts. We dont have them. After Friday, we are as tough as poached egg. I cant think of one side that fears playing MFC beyond boosting their percentage significantly.

Totally agree. After the cats kicked the first goal last week we were as Soft as Hot Butter. All the more sad when many Senior players were involved. Has Anyone ever seen Jeff White Get Mad and thus Fired Up. No he was the Gentle Giant.

Maybe Rod Grinter, Laurie Fowler & Ray Biffin need to have a chat to the boys one night!

Once I saw Jeff White get emotional - does that count? When he wanted to return home to Melbourne when he was with the Dockers. The Dockers weren't going to let him go, he got upset. Spat the dummy.

Maybe our supporters should pull out more cliches to help lift the team out of our slump.

Too right.

Soft as Marshmallow.....isn't it soft as Melted Butter WYL?

Ray Biffin is right up there with Luke Ball and Henry Playfair for players with suitable names. Kind of like Detective Bookman the Library Cop or Mr. Cone the ice cream salesman.

Wtf??

Bailey -"Melbourne jumpers go out there to represent the club" this should be written everywhere down at the club! He goes on to say it's the culture he hopes to establish. Meaning two things, the first is obvious, that he wants a proud culture that plays for the jumper, the second that it really isn't there at the moment.

If he can institute this culture, I will be a very happy man.

Bailey -"Melbourne jumpers go out there to represent the club" this should be written everywhere down at the club! He goes on to say it's the culture he hopes to establish. Meaning two things, the first is obvious, that he wants a proud culture that plays for the jumper, the second that it really isn't there at the moment.

If he can institute this culture, I will be a very happy man.

God speed DB!! Quality players are a prerequisite IMO in helping establishing a ruthless and strong culture.

Bailey -"Melbourne jumpers go out there to represent the club" this should be written everywhere down at the club! He goes on to say it's the culture he hopes to establish. Meaning two things, the first is obvious, that he wants a proud culture that plays for the jumper, the second that it really isn't there at the moment.

If he can institute this culture, I will be a very happy man.

At least this week we get to play in our "real" jumper and not that God awful silver thing, I Believe Bailey has got the right idea, although a situation like last Friday should never Happen again. If it does we are in serious Trouble as a Club.. There were enough Senior Players in that side to know better. Kicking from the centre Square to a Totally Vacant 50 Arc!! Not Acceptable. It Happened so many Times.

As well as A New CEO we could do with some better Assistant coaches Maybe. (I am sick of Being Laughed at for Barracking for the MFC) Get Tough.

At least this week we get to play in our "real" jumper and not that God awful silver thing, I Believe Bailey has got the right idea, although a situation like last Friday should never Happen again. If it does we are in serious Trouble as a Club.. There were enough Senior Players in that side to know better. Kicking from the centre Square to a Totally Vacant 50 Arc!! Not Acceptable. It Happened so many Times.

As well as A New CEO we could do with some better Assistant coaches Maybe. (I am sick of Being Laughed at for Barracking for the MFC) Get Tough.

Love your passion WYL.

This is what I wrote after the St. Kilda loss earlier this year about the MFC club culture. It still applies now, has applied for decades and if it continues to apply there will be no MFC in the future!

"I wish I could predict tattslotto numbers as easily as I picked yesterdays result. Last weeks gutsy loss inspired by Neita's retirement was a good (not great) effort. The Saints were under the media pump all week and came out like we did last week and the rest is history. Quite simply we failed to match their intensity.

We can blame the current coaching panel to a degree, we can blame the players and the lack of leadership and we most certainly can blame Daniher and Cameron who were largely responsible in building and managing this list which was done with no foresight whatsover.

However, the MFC has a bigger problem than our current playing list and our financial woes. As a club we lack CULTURE!

We do not have an identity that players and supporters and the media for that matter associate with. We need to have a relentless no holds barred non negotiable demand to succeed that permeates throughout the club. We need a culture so that all players know that it is an honour to represent our great club and wear that famous jumper. We need a culture that everyone including players, supporters, coaching staff and the board all understand what we represent. Once we understand what we represent the other 15 clubs will well and truly get the message and they will start to respect us again.

I want the MFC to breed a culture where mediocrity is unacceptable. The culture must embrace success and the relentless pursuit of it regardless whether favourite players are delisted. Non performance and non conformance are not acceptable.

It is up to the board and in particular the president to drive this culture. Clearly Garnder is not capable - let's hope Jimmy is."

However, the MFC has a bigger problem than our current playing list and our financial woes. As a club we lack CULTURE!

We do not have an identity that players and supporters and the media for that matter associate with. We need to have a relentless no holds barred non negotiable demand to succeed that permeates throughout the club. We need a culture so that all players know that it is an honour to represent our great club and wear that famous jumper. We need a culture that everyone including players, supporters, coaching staff and the board all understand what we represent. Once we understand what we represent the other 15 clubs will well and truly get the message and they will start to respect us again.

I want the MFC to breed a culture where mediocrity is unacceptable. The culture must embrace success and the relentless pursuit of it regardless whether favourite players are delisted. Non performance and non conformance are not acceptable.

It is up to the board and in particular the president to drive this culture.

I agree with the above. Although the playing list and financial stability are the immediate concerns. However, they all go hand in hand.

I believe we have the culture, the heritage, etc. It's just not embraced as it should be. Embracing and understanding it is important.

Nights like last Tuesday week are very important for the current players, in learning about the support and heritage of past players and the club in general.

They should be given a Info-DVD or documentary of the MFc, and given a preview of its history.

This is what I wrote after the St. Kilda loss earlier this year about the MFC club culture. It still applies now, has applied for decades and if it continues to apply there will be no MFC in the future!

"I wish I could predict tattslotto numbers as easily as I picked yesterdays result. Last weeks gutsy loss inspired by Neita's retirement was a good (not great) effort. The Saints were under the media pump all week and came out like we did last week and the rest is history. Quite simply we failed to match their intensity.

We can blame the current coaching panel to a degree, we can blame the players and the lack of leadership and we most certainly can blame Daniher and Cameron who were largely responsible in building and managing this list which was done with no foresight whatsover.

However, the MFC has a bigger problem than our current playing list and our financial woes. As a club we lack CULTURE!

We do not have an identity that players and supporters and the media for that matter associate with. We need to have a relentless no holds barred non negotiable demand to succeed that permeates throughout the club. We need a culture so that all players know that it is an honour to represent our great club and wear that famous jumper. We need a culture that everyone including players, supporters, coaching staff and the board all understand what we represent. Once we understand what we represent the other 15 clubs will well and truly get the message and they will start to respect us again.

I want the MFC to breed a culture where mediocrity is unacceptable. The culture must embrace success and the relentless pursuit of it regardless whether favourite players are delisted. Non performance and non conformance are not acceptable.

It is up to the board and in particular the president to drive this culture. Clearly Garnder is not capable - let's hope Jimmy is."

Good to read someone else shares my belief. Without fixing the Culture-everything else is just a band aid...

I believe we have the culture, the heritage, etc. It's just not embraced as it should be. Embracing and understanding it is important.

In other words we dont have it. <_<

In other words we dont have it. <_<

We have it alright.....no question.

We just don't have a "home" where we can express it, as one voice.

The culture is underlying, always there. I have seen it, smelled it and felt it.

We just need the right environment.

We have it alright.....no question.

We just don't have a "home" where we can express it, as one voice.

The culture is underlying, always there. I have seen it, smelled it and felt it.

We just need the right environment.

The Great Culture Died when Norm Smith was Hung out to dry. We at present do not have a culture. Our Hey day was just too long ago.

We have to start a new one-using the old one as a base. I think Bails is the man to do it. The CEO appointment will tell us a lot as to what direction we are going.

In other words we dont have it. <_<

You know what I mean. It's staring them in the face. They actually wear part of it on their chest/back.

We have it alright.....no question.

We just don't have a "home" where we can express it, as one voice.

The culture is underlying, always there. I have seen it, smelled it and felt it.

We just need the right environment.

Rubbish, if we had a culture centred around an uncomprising pursuit of success we would not have fallen away after seasons 88, 98, 2000 & 2002 etc. If we had that winning culture we would not have offered up the countless lame efforts that we have had to endure over the years. I'm not talking about Geelong type defeats either - I'm talking about games where in the first 5 minutes you can "feel" that the players are not switched on and you know we are going to lose already. These are games where we are fielding a good team and have a real chance of winning - how many times has that happened over the years. A non negotiable winning culture would not tolerate such efforts.

If we had a winning culture we would not have tolerated Daniher for 10 years. I'm not talking about sacking coaches after a few years but a decade was way too long - he was able to cruise within the confines of our culture (or lack thereof) because we were making finals (but not winning many I might add).

If we had a winning culture we would be respected and hated by the other 15 teams. We have no respect currently and most other supporters don't mind us because we are not a threat - we don't generate any animosity.

I will agree with one thing you said though - you do need the right environment to breed culture. That is not a physical environment (although that helps). You need everyone from the president and CEO down to the boot studder and property steward to understand, respect and expect that the only thing that survives in this environment is success. A winning culture is a harsh environment, not a place for the weak hearted or the indecisive. When everyone associated with the club is living and breathing that and understands that then success on and off the field will follow.

Rubbish, if we had a culture centred around an uncomprising pursuit of success we would not have fallen away after seasons 88, 98, 2000 & 2002 etc. If we had that winning culture we would not have offered up the countless lame efforts that we have had to endure over the years. I'm not talking about Geelong type defeats either - I'm talking about games where in the first 5 minutes you can "feel" that the players are not switched on and you know we are going to lose already. These are games where we are fielding a good team and have a real chance of winning - how many times has that happened over the years. A non negotiable winning culture would not tolerate such efforts.

If we had a winning culture we would not have tolerated Daniher for 10 years. I'm not talking about sacking coaches after a few years but a decade was way too long - he was able to cruise within the confines of our culture (or lack thereof) because we were making finals (but not winning many I might add).

If we had a winning culture we would be respected and hated by the other 15 teams. We have no respect currently and most other supporters don't mind us because we are not a threat - we don't generate any animosity.

I will agree with one thing you said though - you do need the right environment to breed culture. That is not a physical environment (although that helps). You need everyone from the president and CEO down to the boot studder and property steward to understand, respect and expect that the only thing that survives in this environment is success. A winning culture is a harsh environment, not a place for the weak hearted or the indecisive. When everyone associated with the club is living and breathing that and understands that then success on and off the field will follow.

Spot on Pello....Interesting that Sandringham have had a winning culture pretty much since the Mid Eighties but it hasn't rubbed off on Melbourne. I Honestly thought after 2000 when Sandy won the Flag and the Demons were Runners up it was all about to roll. For melbourne i was sadly Wrong

Spot on Pello....Interesting that Sandringham have had a winning culture pretty much since the Mid Eighties but it hasn't rubbed off on Melbourne. I Honestly thought after 2000 when Sandy won the Flag and the Demons were Runners up it was all about to roll. For melbourne i was sadly Wrong

Yeah good point - I was also hoping that Mark Williams would drag some of that winning culture across with him when he joined our coaching panel full time but as I have stated it needs to permeate through the club from the top down and one assistant coach is not enough to drive it.

Yeah good point - I was also hoping that Mark Williams would drag some of that winning culture across with him when he joined our coaching panel full time but as I have stated it needs to permeate through the club from the top down and one assistant coach is not enough to drive it.

I remember games against Hawthorn in the late 80-90's where their supporters would laugh at me and others before the Game, and then Beat us by 80+ points. There was nothing i could say- they were right

And nothing has changed.

We have it alright.....no question.

We just don't have a "home" where we can express it, as one voice.

The culture is underlying, always there. I have seen it, smelled it and felt it.

We just need the right environment.

We have a crud culture that can be changed through what you develop through the current and future playing group. If the playing group dont have it then we dont have a culture worth a toss. I have seen many teams with a definite "home" and a crap culture.

A change of culture at the club is what has been needed for a long time.

In many ways the cause of all this happened in 1963(?) when Norm Smith called a particular umpire a "cheat" and was in return sued by the umpire. Instead of the MFC board giving Norm Smith their full support during this time he was told "you were on your own". Then at the end of 1964 instead of the MFC moving heaven and earth to keep Ron Barassi a Demon they let him go to Carlton for the "big bucks". So basically our champion player (somebody who embodied our heart and soul) was allowed to go and play for another club. To make matters worse the MFC sacked Norm Smith mid-season in 1965 and then reinstated him again about a week later. This already soured tense relations after the issue back in 1963 which I mentioned.

From those particular points onwards thing were on the slide for this club...

So basically the culture of the MFC was being rotted out as early as 1963. When the toffs and other big-wigs who were involved with the MFC become arrogant and selfish.

After the treatment of Norm Smith it flowed onto the playing group. Of course there were many other factors which lead to the decline of the MFC including the change of recruitment zones etc. But our culture of "winning at all costs" left in 1965 in my opinion. It has showed glimpses of coming back in the 80s and 90s and 2000s. The only problem is we don't have a "hard edge" on our players. We don't punish them enough if they lose and intill into them a sense of pride and passion when wearing the Demons jumper. The dark blue and red yoke jumper should mean EVERYTHING to a player who wears it.

When it comes to club culture you need tough and uncompromising people to instill a sense of toughness. This applies from the President right down to the boot studder. I think now with Jim Stynes we are SLOWLY starting to see this.

But we need to get rid of a lot of the older playing group (via trading or delisting) and start fresh. From now on we should only draft players who are not only very skillful but also have a "mean streak" and a sense of detemination about them. (When I talk about a mean streak I should mention players like Leigh Matthews, Paul Chapman, Wayne Carey, Dean Wallis, Josh Carr, and of course Ron Barassi.) If the players we draft are young and don't have a "mean streak" or a sense of ruthlessness or determination in them it is the job of the coaching staff AND the rest of the people involved in the MFC to instill this into our players.

It should be always remembered that WINNING is the ONLY option. While coming close (but losing) and putting in a good, hard, tough, effort is admirable it is still NOT good enough!

Once we have a sense of ruthlessness, toughness and determination instilled into our club, only then will we start to create a winning culture once again here at the Melbourne Football Club.

wow supreme that is deep, and spot on... i agree with you, we definitely need to get some "mongrel" about us and stop being so delicate on the field. it's a bit like we have a litter of labrador pups, eager to try and running around aiming to do the right thing, but what we need is more like a rotweiller and a couple of dobermans who will dominate purely with their presence before they even get their hands on the ball.

what we don't want is to become a team of prancy poodles...

Go You (Mongrel) Demons!!

so you ought to be.. Dude !!

again. .He has weeknesses in his body..he may wewl be addressing them but that in itself assures noting that it wil measure up.

Let me restate for you..and others incapble of reading the line ..as in post 13."Pretty well makes this next preseason make or break"

If he cant get through a preseason.. his value is nought !! DUDE !!

wow supreme that is deep, and spot on... i agree with you, we definitely need to get some "mongrel" about us and stop being so delicate on the field. it's a bit like we have a litter of labrador pups, eager to try and running around aiming to do the right thing, but what we need is more like a rotweiller and a couple of dobermans who will dominate purely with their presence before they even get their hands on the ball.

what we don't want is to become a team of pracy poodles...

Go You (Mongrel) Demons!!

But we don't want to create a team of Carr's and the like.

If, in the next 5 years we develop a team with a strong gameplan who play consistent footy and don't lose games they shouldn't, who then move on after 5 or so years of good footy and give way to a young team who have shocking losses, and then whinge about our culture being "soft" i'll spit chips.

I hate that we have a rubbish culture, but follow enough sports to know that the majority of teams in all sports have a rubbish culture.

If you complain about it, either try and hep fix it, or follow another team.

All clubs will have shocking losses, thinking back to the 80's i don't think there was one team that didn't get belted at least once. Carlton's "winning culture" hasn't helped them much of late, neither has the Bombers, yet the Dogs are going against their "soft" culture for so long.

You can't whinge about your team's soft culture, whilst then complaining about opposition supporters laughing at our club. That reeks of hypocrisy and double standards.

We as supporters must help build this club into a powerhouse again, i'm not sure how but i do my best to get as many people along to games, evetnts etc. but i just can't see us becoming the great club we all want us to be. Where will it come from? How will we get there? What milestones must we achieve to have it happen? (Keep in mind, the Kangas made 9 straight prelims, winning 2 grand finals, in the 90's and '00 and it didn't help their club become a powerhouse)

These are the questions we must address if we want to change the "soft culture" of our club. With medicore crowd attendance and memberships, even on field success will not give us a hardened culture.

We can instill that through coaching leadership into on field discipline for a certain amount of time, but that will only last for a certain amount of time.

Talk of the 80's, and the "hardness" that evoked in players all you want, it is irrelevant to modern day footy

Once we have a sense of ruthlessness, toughness and determination instilled into our club, only then will we start to create a winning culture once again here at the Melbourne Football Club.

Perfect summation! You don't have to be winning to be any of these things, it's an attitude we need to carry with us at all times. We get that right, the victories will take care of themselves.

If, in the next 5 years we develop a team with a strong gameplan who play consistent footy and don't lose games they shouldn't, who then move on after 5 or so years of good footy and give way to a young team who have shocking losses, and then whinge about our culture being "soft" i'll spit chips.

I hate that we have a rubbish culture, but follow enough sports to know that the majority of teams in all sports have a rubbish culture.

If you complain about it, either try and hep fix it, or follow another team.

All clubs will have shocking losses, thinking back to the 80's i don't think there was one team that didn't get belted at least once. Carlton's "winning culture" hasn't helped them much of late, neither has the Bombers, yet the Dogs are going against their "soft" culture for so long.

You can't whinge about your team's soft culture, whilst then complaining about opposition supporters laughing at our club. That reeks of hypocrisy and double standards.

We as supporters must help build this club into a powerhouse again, i'm not sure how but i do my best to get as many people along to games, evetnts etc. but i just can't see us becoming the great club we all want us to be. Where will it come from? How will we get there? What milestones must we achieve to have it happen? (Keep in mind, the Kangas made 9 straight prelims, winning 2 grand finals, in the 90's and '00 and it didn't help their club become a powerhouse)

These are the questions we must address if we want to change the "soft culture" of our club. With medicore crowd attendance and memberships, even on field success will not give us a hardened culture.

We can instill that through coaching leadership into on field discipline for a certain amount of time, but that will only last for a certain amount of time.

Talk of the 80's, and the "hardness" that evoked in players all you want, it is irrelevant to modern day footy

So you are prepared to accept the current culture that has hung over this club since Norm Smith was Shafted, & just say that's how it Goes. Lets talk Hawthorn for a sec. John Kennedy Built a winning Culture into that side in the late 50's, and it still lives today. Sure they Have Bad years but they Bounce Back. They won't beat Geelong this year but they will learn & Get Hungry for next year i got no doubt.

You underestimate the power of a Good Culture. I want to see Melbourne Fill our Home Ground again, & i aint giving up on that vision....

I'd like to see it as well, but i feel the way you're going about helping it happen will achieve nothing.

As supporters we should establish clear goals as to how to get our club where it needs to be, otherwise you are not helping the problem at all.

Hawthorn's culture didn't stop it missing finals each year from 01 to 07, going out of it's way to lose and gain priority picks, so each team can have bad years. Melbourne have had bad years, but you've chosen to state they are the result of bad culture after having good years.

I'm not sure why we were as "successful" as we were during 04-06, but I know now it was false hope and that our membership/supporter base did not increase to anything near a "power" side

Vague references to a "winning culture" that lives inside teams like Hawthorn and Carlton will not instil a fierce, attacking and proud culture at the MFC. Somehow there must be a more direct way we as supporters can help boost our own levels of support, at least helping one part of the puzzle.

I'd like to see it as well, but i feel the way you're going about helping it happen will achieve nothing.

As supporters we should establish clear goals as to how to get our club where it needs to be, otherwise you are not helping the problem at all.

Hawthorn's culture didn't stop it missing finals each year from 01 to 07, going out of it's way to lose and gain priority picks, so each team can have bad years. Melbourne have had bad years, but you've chosen to state they are the result of bad culture after having good years.

I'm not sure why we were as "successful" as we were during 04-06, but I know now it was false hope and that our membership/supporter base did not increase to anything near a "power" side

Vague references to a "winning culture" that lives inside teams like Hawthorn and Carlton will not instil a fierce, attacking and proud culture at the MFC. Somehow there must be a more direct way we as supporters can help boost our own levels of support, at least helping one part of the puzzle.

We weren't successfull between 2004-2006. That's my point. I am talking about setting a high standard at the MFC & sticking to it. Getting Close regulairly is not good enough. When that Happens the club has to improve. Yes I agree that the Priority pick situation is not good for club culture, but i don't think that system will last forever.....