Anyone for cricket?

[jazza 1,323]

can we put Watson on the ltil and bring in magner/couch

its the first time ive enjoyed watsons batting ,because he was in strife and fighting for every run

yes macca the drs has many knockers and different cricket boards have their own opinions about it

seems the umpires have lost the ability too make decisions without video help, which is a modern day young persons thing.if they cant see a replay they struggle to explain what happened in front of their eyes.probably because its normal to see everything on playback in the modern era

producing good umpire officials doesn't come easy when everything is replayed adneuseum

I personally think the DRS should be not available to players, only to officials as it wouldn't hold up the game to check the bad decisions, it adds up to the time they spend checking it atm.

btw, how much time do the poms waste by having meetings before during every over.

this is a ploy against inexperienced batsmen and SOMEBODY should approach the umpires mid innings and ask them to get the precedings on the move

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

it seems the umpires have lost the ability too make decisions without video help, which is a modern day young persons thing.if they cant see a replay they struggle to explain what happened in front of their eyes.probably because its normal to see everything on playback in the modern eraproducing good umpire officials doesn't come easy when everything is replayed adneuseumI personally think the DRS should be not available to players, only to officials as it wouldn't hold up the game to check the bad decisions, it adds up to the time they spend checking it atm.

FWIW the umpires aren't young (Tony Hill certainly isn't). And a central umpire cant see a replay to check unless either side challenges it. They are just making a number of bad calls.

And the reason for the DRS hold up is the officials reviewing the dismissal. It takes a player little time to push his fist into his forearm in the shape of a T less than 5 seconds. Teams have generally got the process down pat. Fielding teams consult keeper,bowler and captain. The batting side has the two bats consult. It's a matter of seconds. I don't begrudge the official if they take a minute or two to get a decision right rather than have a wrong decision stain a whole Test or series.

[jazza 1,323]

must have miss written

I meant the amount of time used at the moment, may as well let the 3rd check all of them

get the poms stopping their mid over conversations and the game will be able to move on

check every out or ditch the system of DRS. it clearly was designed for the right things but as usual is being used smarlty by players and not getting rid of the howlers

and yes ive always felt that when a human gets used to watching replays and then has to do without them, it may become a muddle after relying on technology and then relaxing the thought process to deal without it must be hard

Edited August 12, 2013 by jazza

[dee-luded 2,959]

DRS

Out-law edge tape.

The batsmen can afford plenty of bats. DRS works well, but just needs to be fine tuned & taken out of the hands of the teams. it should be the 3rd umpires call to immediately pause the game when a possible BAD decision has been given.

& drs should cover all dismissal forms. out of the teams hands.

Edited October 23, 2013 by dee-luded

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

check every out or ditch the system of DRS. it clearly was designed for the right things but as usual is being used smarlty by players and not getting rid of the howlers ...

Well both options seem foolish and don't address the issue.

I think the evidence is that the system has been poorly used by the players as they learn to deal with technology. If the Australian had not been so cavalier in blowing their DRS reviews then the Stuart Broad howler would not have happened. The players are getting smarter at using their challenges.

If the DRS had been properly used by the 3rd umpire then the Khawaja howlers should have been overturned.

Which howlers are you talking about? If there are howlers then surely they should be called out and rectified.

And there were two howlers yesterday. Ryan Harris LBW ( how could the umpire have missed that??) and Nathan Lyons LBW (why didn't he challenge? It was clearly going down leg).

There has been a lot of smoke screens and strawman arguments on here against the DRS. It's a pity they don't have much factual merit.

It's not a perfect but evolving system but some of the incorrect claims really should be subject to due scrutiny. And isn't that what we are achieving with the DRS?

[jazza 1,323]

foolish. it was designed to get rid of the HOWLER

example stuart broad, for starters big boy

as I said take it out of the players hands and they wont misuse them

harris and lyon LBW missed by umpire would allow 3rd to rectify end of story

if you use DRS like other sports its all or nothing, don't let lunatics take over the asylum

[Macca 16,903]

Those opposed to DRS talk about its flaws (certainly in my case) 'Not liking it' comes as an overall judgement because of those flaws. This is not about not embracing new technology or being suspicious of anything new. It's whether a new system is as good or better than the old system.

I was never opposed to trying the system out but was of the belief that it didn't have the amount of flaws that have been shown up (e.g. snicko not always being used because it's not up to real time, hotspot being largely unreliable, Hawk-eye now being talked about as 'dubious', the inventor of hotspot being concerned about certain coverings of the bats, technology varying according to the host broadcaster etc)

DRS has worked a lot better in this Test and it's about time. Perhaps the ICC should have made sure the system was working properly before they went down the path of using it. It seems they've decided to go in with a 'boots and all' approach but will have to iron out the problems and flaws as it progresses. For a supposed professionally run organisation, it's seems quite an amateurish way of doing things. But of course, we are talking about the ICC.

[jazza 1,323]

spot on macca

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

foolish. it was designed to get rid of the HOWLER

example stuart broad, for starters big boy

as I said take it out of the players hands and they wont misuse them

harris and lyon LBW missed by umpire would allow 3rd to rectify end of story

if you use DRS like other sports its all or nothing, don't let lunatics take over the asylum

I have already addressed the Stuart Broad issue and how that could have been avoided....if players had not squandered their consultations.

The best way to get rid of the howler is to improve the judgement/decision making of the umpires. If two teams agree, then you should be able to draw from umpires either of those countries to ensure you are actually getting the best. Simon Taufel (Australia) is widely viewed as one of, if not the best umpire going around in Test cricket but Australia has been denied access.

The issue is the players are not misusing it to the detriment of the system. They are not activating their challenges correctly (eg Lyon).

So if an umpire gives a batsman out then when does the 3rd umpire intervene. He wont know at a split second if there is an issue particularly when the matter is often close. He wont know until the batsman is half way in the dressing room.

This will lead to significant uncertainty as to what is going on...more so than what is happening now. What happens if the umpire gives a decision, both sides accept and the 3rd umpire decides to equivocate of his own accord?? Time wasting, uncertainty, frustration and uncalled for off field interference.

And in the case of Khawaja the 3rd umpire clearly would not have picked up.....even after the watching the replay a number of times!!! He certainly would not have picked up any issue with the Chris Rogers decision So the howler or umpire error continues!!

And in the case of close decisions the 3rd umpire is in the split second worst position to make a call. He cannot hear a sound and cant detect a deflection so how can he call it.

Leaving it with the 3rd umpire does not address your core concerns about the process.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

captaincy, batsmenship, don't equal leadership

if your confused get a dictionary.i answered a query on why our team was so bad. and said we don't have leadership. in

anyway shape or form in this team.

no leadership in the sheds and it transpires on the ground. I didn't attack Clarke intentionly. maybe I cant write as good as others,my Clarke comments were printed after somebody wanted to know why I thought there was no leadership.i also answered why I thought Clarke couldn't and shouldn't lead.if I didn't give reasons people may not have understood

go aussies

For those who are confused on what LEADERSHIP is there is an excellent article from Ian Chappell on Clarke and Cook and Clarke's LEADERSHIP calibre.

Yeah I know what would Chappelli know about LEADERSHIP and captaincy? He should get a dictionary.....

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/661025.html

[jazza 1,323]

most decisions

definable catch

bowled

run outs

back to the howlers, let the 3 umpires make a decision

just because players have misused the DRS ,that doesn't excuse the authorities for letting howlers go through

originally I think it was brought in with the idea that howlers would be gone

and to incorporate this they needed an agreement with all parties , this bought the players association into the act and has now obvoisly ruined the system .

no arguments lifes to short. read page 95 saturdays hun

mate trying to be nice look at a video of warners appeal and drs last test, mc couldn't look himin the eye and say out

and this article p95 hun clearly shows me what I would expect and want

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

back to the howlers, let the 3 umpires make a decision

just because players have misused the DRS ,that doesn't excuse the authorities for letting howlers go through

originally I think it was brought in with the idea that howlers would be gone

and to incorporate this they needed an agreement with all parties , this bought the players association into the act and has now obvoisly ruined the system .

no arguments lifes to short. read page 95 saturdays hun

mate trying to be nice look at a video of warners appeal and drs last test, mc couldn't look himin the eye and say out

and this article p95 hun clearly shows me what I would expect and want

Once again, Khawaja would not have been settled through the 3 umpires.

There is no evidence of misue of the DRS by the players (I am not sure why you carry on about that??) and as you correctly pointed out its the authorities who have let the howlers through. So why leave it purely with the authorities?

And if MC cant determine whether Warner hit it then the 3rd umpires from over 100 metres away wont work it out. And once again the players are adapting to the system. And i would hardly call the Warner example a howler. The umpire got it right and when challenged was shown to be right. Seems like a big tick for the DRS!!......once again.

[jazza 1,323]

the MISUSE is when players have utilised all the teams drs and later batsmen cant use them.so sorry to carry on and not articulate that properly, that's the misuse,take that option away,problem solved

you miss understood the warner meaning

I would say besides kwajlaja and most of the low catch calls there hasn't been many 3rd ump mistakes that come to mind

and those low catch wont be solved

[Macca 16,903]

Perhaps the ICC could have trialled a fully operational DRS at the next level down. Shield, County, Currie Cup games or the like could have easily been set up with the technology. 2 or 3 years of a fully operational DRS being used in a multitude of games at the next level down could have the effect of ironing out any issues. The ICC is well cashed up so it can't be a money issue. Perhaps they're just incompetent.

In an interview with Warren Brennan (the inventor of hotspot) Warren indicated that the 3rd umpire can have a lot more information and video at his immediate disposal. Currently he believes that's not the case and we have a situation where the 3rd umpire is waiting on the host broadcaster to 'feed' him the information. And the quality of that information can vary quite significantly. Again, it's amateurish and the ICC must shoulder the blame.

The following BBC podcast features Warren Brennan. Goes for 3.50 mins but he does explain things quite well ... well worth a listen ... The inventor of Hot Spot explains the limitations of his system

The problem with using hotspot as an 'aid' is that if it's always going to be somewhat unreliable, what's the point of using it? When can we 'believe' hotspot? It's not like one can pick and choose. You either trust in it or you don't.

[Macca 16,903]

From cricinfo on the Pietersen dismissal in the 2nd innings of the 3rd Test ...

Siddle to Pietersen, OUT, pitched up and Pietersen is driving, beats the bat, Haddin is up on his toes, arms in the air, Siddle less sure but Hill gives it! Pietersen looks baffled, even hurt and calls for the review ... Here we go, then: there's maybe a faint sound as the ball passes the bat, no visible edge; Hot Spot shows nothing ... and Dharmasena again decides there's not enough grounds to overturn the on-field call, so Hill's finger is raised once more! Pietersen looks furious as he marches off; the soup has just got thicker

Did KP nick it? Without DRS he may well have walked off the ground and accepted the umpires decision without showing any dissent. Then again he might have shown dissent ... we'll never know. Most neutral observers might form an opinion either way but under the old system, the 'rub of the green' comes into play.

Now, because of the use of DRS and the unreliability of 'hotspot' we're even further confused. If we 'trust' hotspot then KP shouldn't be out and if we don't trust hotspot we're left scratching our heads.

We've now got a situation were we are most probably stuck with the new technology but it needs a lot of work. Not sure they can fix everything anyway and at some stage, we're going to have an almost identical incident to the one involving KP.

For what it's worth, I believe that Pietersen nicked the ball and I believe he knew he hit it. Other batsmen in this series have done the same thing so he's not on his own there. Reckon he was testing the technology and if you allow batsmen to review decisions, they'll always be tempted to review those decisions.

Unnecessary reviews can happen because of all sorts of situations. What if a batsman is just plain selfish or is battling to save his career? What if the team requires him to review a decision he may have ordinarily walked on? (think Gilchrist)

At the very least the reviews should be taken away from the players. Just let the 3rd umpire review everything. It will slow the game down appreciably but at least it will help eliminate the howler and any 'perceived' cheating. Of course, that's assuming that DRS stays.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The alleged "misuse" is an issue for the team but is not a flaw with the DRS.

As I said batting and bowling teams are getting smarter with the use of the technology. That's to be expected.

But the 3rd umpire only has address the referrals for review. The problem comes when he has to articulate quickly tight situations where he can only sight matters from a long way away in a split second with audibility of the matter. There is no way he could have navigated the close call decisions on Rogers.

[jazza 1,323]

you win rhino,ive got to milk soon

macca you write explain and converse your feelings to words much better than i

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The problem with using hotspot as an 'aid' is that if it's always going to be somewhat unreliable, what's the point of using it? When can we 'believe' hotspot? It's not like one can pick and choose. You either trust in it or you don't.

The use of hotspot is in conjunction with other tests not on its own. If you are trying to base a decision purely on Hotspot then it would be sensible to rule the benefit of the doubt or umpires call.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

At the very least the reviews should be taken away from the players. Just let the 3rd umpire review everything. It will slow the game down appreciably but at least it will help eliminate the howler and any 'perceived' cheating. Of course, that's assuming that DRS stays.

That's the problem. You are concerned about DRS being intrusive and undermining the central umpire. Well, well, well, the slowness of Test cricket is exacerbated by the 3rd umpire having to do a witch hunt on everything he thinks is an issue. And he certainly won't pick up the close calls and will have Khawaja moments. I think those in the middle should be the ones to instigate the review with the opportunity for the 3rd umpire to call out the obvious howler like the Stuart Broad snick

And FWIW, Petersen was confirmed out on the issue of sound noise in the absence of a clear hotspot mark. It's not the be all and end all. It's not a matter of black or white in whether you back hotspot or not. There are a combination of factors to be considered and judged upon.

[Macca 16,903]

The use of hotspot is in conjunction with other tests not on its own. If you are trying to base a decision purely on Hotspot then it would be sensible to rule the benefit of the doubt or umpires call.

Lets agree to disagree. Time will tell whether this whole DRS system works or not.

If it does work long term, well and good. Right now, it comes down to a matter of opinion. We'll know DRS is working when it's talked about without any reasonable degree of controversy.

macca you write explain and converse your feelings to words much better than i

Thanks jazza, but you're way too kind. At the end of the day, it's all just about opinions. And you know what they say about opinions!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Lets agree to disagree. Time will tell whether this whole DRS system works or not.

We'll know DRS is working when it's talked about without any reasonable degree of controversy.

Any decision which is not finally decided by the umpire ( referred in some manner to the 3rd umpire) or is a clear or blatantly obvious error by the central umpire has and will attract controversy. It's a poor metric of judgement.

The real test is when used properly does the DRS result in better decisions ( ie has the process resulted in an incorrect decision being corrected) or vindicating the decisions made by the umpire.

Technology is here to stay and we will not walk away from it.

We either learn to use it better or seek to develop it further towards the aim.

Drums are beating.......

[Macca 16,903]

England leading by 202 runs with 5 wickets in hand gives them an advantage if they can convert that to an overall lead of 275+. Anything can happen though and we just need to get 1 wicket to possibly trigger a collapse. Ideally we can remove Bell fairly quickly as he could guide England to a good total. 3rd ton in this series for him now and he's certainly batted very well.

In other news ... Shane Watson struggling again as injury likely to rule all-rounder out of final Test at The Oval

If Watson is unable to bowl again in this match it is highly unlikely he will be able to play the fifth and final Test at The Oval, beginning next Wednesday.

This would create a conundrum for the selectors. Do they consider James Faulkner, the other all-rounder in the squad, or do they chose a specialist batsman because Watson is a batsman first?

The other alternative is to promote a specialist batsman with Phil Hughes and Ed Cowan tried and discarded this series. And the least likely option is to use reserve wicket-keeper Matt Wade as a specialist batsman but he made a duck in Australia’s last tour match against Sussex.

[titan_uranus 24,969]

Huge fightback from Harris to get rid of Bell and Prior, then Broad. But those late runs to Bresnan and Swan have pushed the lead up to 299, and I reckon that's about 40-50 too much for us.

To chase this is going to require a really concerted effort from our top 7. With the freedom of time to help us (let's hope there's no rain), we need our batsmen to get themselves in and then to diligently work together to knock this off.

You'd think we'll need one of Rogers and Clarke to post a big score, but I want to see Warner, Khawaja, Smith, Watson and Haddin show something.

[Macca 16,903]

It's a big ask but it would be a great victory if we can chase this score down. I suppose if Rogers plays the sheet anchor then that is one part of the equation ticked off. Khawaja needs to bat some good time as well.

Warner, Clarke, Smith and Watson to be the aggressors? They've got the bowling for this sort of wicket though. We'll need a slice of luck.

[titan_uranus 24,969]

Aannnnd it's raining.