Hannibal

The club encouraged it.

Unfortunately I too don't have the experience you're seeking. I suspect it's a mixture of treatment, expectations on individual players, selection decisions, understanding a players strengths and weaknesses, and crucially the leadership group. It probably includes the whole fabric and culture of a club. It's intangible, but I reckon Roos and co know how to do it. A youngster that joins the Sydney Swans goes through an induction process. This may be the same at most/all clubs, but it's driven by the LG. Sydney's LG virtually runs the club with the imprimatur of the coach. Tom Mitchell is going to be a genuine star. Yes, he had injury issues in his first season, but he also played plenty of footy at their lower level. He didn't play a senior game in his first year. Scully, Watts, Morton and Trengove come to the club and there's much fanfare. The Kids get talked up a lot. They're anointed as the ones that are going to drive the club up the ladder. Rather than just settle in, learn from the senior group, play most of the year at Casey, they're given exalted status. The psyche of the whole club is wrong. They players feel expectation that they shouldn't and senior players probably get their noses out of joint, especially when they see their teammates pensioned off or leave for other clubs. There's probably not one easy answer, but there's been a culmination of poor decisions adversely effect young players drafted to this club.

He was a very disappointing forward against the Hawks. He's the kind of guy that can be dangerous against weak opposition, or a good foil for a couple of power forwards as the third stringer, but as the go-to-man I think he'll struggle, certainly against good opposition.

Yes, he's seemingly agreeing with me, but doesn't even know it.

As I have. He's no "jet" at AFL level. Perhaps you don't appreciate the step up.

Yes, he is still a Kid, but like Watts, you'll find Toumpas will always shine in the friendlies. It's when the intensity goes up 5 notches he'll need to deliver. Right now I don't think he can. He has plenty of time though. George Stone has taken him under his wing.

If they're over 24 and not performing they're probably not good enough. Who are you referring to ?

I saw enough in the Richmond and Geelong games to be quietly enthused. One bad game against the best team in it doesn't evaporate the other two performances. I'm very much looking forward to the year, but it's a real downer about our key forwards. It definitely makes a big difference to our playing style/performance.

I agree. He's a bit out of sight out of mind, but his strong body, decent skills and pitbull style is right up Roos' alley. When he's fit and firing he'll be a staple in Roos' team.

Barry Hall confirmed on TV recently that Roos requires 2 fundamentals from his footy sides, winning contested footy and tackling pressure. The only player at Sydney that I don't consider strong in those combinations is Jetta, but his line breaking ability is rare. Toumpas was drafted as a mid, so will need to greatly improve in those areas, which I'm sure he will. If Roos was coach last year I doubt Toumpas would have played a game. So you're right to say we need to give him time and good development. But it if we have a Jetta type in our team it won't be Toumpas.

Your arguments are very simple and I've used them myself, often. It's not like I'm unfamiliar with the players in question or their weaknesses. I have no doubt that the environment at this club over the last few years coupled with terrible decision making and a lack of quality senior players was not conducive for any young player to realise their capabilities. They were seen as the solution and developed accordingly when they should have been learning their craft and not exposed to a toxic environment. They were handled terribly. The fact that some then get churned by the system is entirely unsurprising and not in itself definitive. Those early years are very important for a player's career. I also have no doubt that some recruiting selections were poor. You and others seem to think it's an either-or situation. It isn't. Things run far deeper.

I know for a fact that some at the club think our previous development was so bad it virtually gave some players no chance at success.

Excellent. I'm fond of the compellingly stupid.

I don't disagree with a single word. You're right, Wines would not be as advanced at our club. He is though a big bodied mid, so would be in a far better position than most.

Why do you think you should be able to control content or people's views ?

It's an opinion. It's commentary.

Who's not "over" it ?

You're dressing up speculation as fact. You may be right about the SA connection, but I simply don't know. Your guesswork may or may not be correct, although I appreciate the "educated" aspect to it.

I liked Tyson's game yesterday, but most seemed to dismiss it.

Then most things on here are pointless.

Yes, I will. Does that mean we can't have opinions now, notwithstanding the vagaries this early on ?

I've stated ad nauseum that I don't see Watts as a quality mid and nothing thus far has changed my mind. He and Toumpas are a mile off against quality sides. Their lack of physicality is pronounced. It's still early days and many Demonlanders get very upset by these sorts of opinions, but not taking Wines could end up one of this clubs biggest blunders. It is too early, but the signs are most definitely there.

72 year old Lenny Hayes was the Saints best player yesterday and Montagna was also named in their best. Them not playing round 1 is massive.

Yes, obviously.

It is what it is. We tried to play the Hawthorn way and got exposed and shown where we're at. They chopped us up on the outside, but I thought our endevour at the stoppages was OK. Roos will get far more from this loss than the win against Richmond. Also, we went head to head all day. It was a practice match and Roos didn't try to rein in the loss. We know where we're at and it will do the players good to know where we need to get to. Seemingly I'm not as upset as others.