Hannabal

Your post annoys me, but I accept I'm easily annoyed I started having blues with opposition supporters aged 5 in the 1970's over my crap team. They knew how passionate I was about the Dees and what wins meant to me, so take your patronising remark (which I've kindly bolded) and shove it up your sphincter. In my post I stated: "The players and Coaches will always try to win on the day, of that I’m certain, but no-one will convince me that it’s in the club’s best interests to win more than 4 matches this year." This comment of mine makes it unnecessary for you to state "Whether you like it or not, every coach & every player & everyone else in the FD will be playing every game to win." I accept my post was long and that your retention skills may well be short. And clearly I've said that I'm happy to win 4, so, just as clearly, I don't have a "prescription to play (or to 'list-manage') to lose every game for the rest of the season." And yes, I do believe that the club will use 'list management strategy' should it find itself in the unlikely situation of being on 4 wins. This may be where we disagree. Finally, I believe that Trengove or Morabito are clear stand-outs to other potential top 10 players, so yes, I'm very keen to get one of those instead of others you mention. But I note your point. And no, they may not be on BP's top 3 list. But I reckon they just might.

No, we need the priority pick as well. This is the last opportunity to take advantage of a pp over the next few years. Why on earth given the chance to get a free pick 2 or 3 would we blow it ? It's great to get Scully, but the extra top 3 pick is a must. Griffen was top 3, as was Roughead, Ball, Kosi, Sylvia, Ellis, Thomas, Wells... They're not all stars, but why lose the opportunity of a very good player, if not a star, because of 1-2 too many wins. Being just satisfied with Scully is the sort of attitude that has got us where we are. Btw, I'd take Morabito or Trengove with pick 2 - just leaning towards the former. I reckon Morabito will be a star. Morabito or 1 more win ? 200 game line breaking star or 1 more win ? Just Scully or Scully plus a potential star ? The trickle down, or ripple effect of stars is palpable. Don't under estimate the benefits of that pp pick. It's massive. Some say that we won't win 5 no matter how hard we try. I'm not so sure. But I'm happy to have wasted my time over a non-issue if it is the case. Not to mention enjoy the upcoming draft.

To me there seems to be three distinct camps - there's the "we're doomed if we win more than 4" group; the "one top draft pick won't win us a flag" exponents; or the “I don’t care about draft picks as they are not the be all and end all and I want my team to win every week they play”. The facts are one player can make a difference to us potentially winning a flag. Those that dismiss such a notion are far too flippant. West Coast wouldn't have won a flag without Judd (pick 3) and Hawthorn wouldn't have won a flag without Franklin (top 5). Buddy didn't star on the day, but they wouldn't have made a GF without this 100+ goal freak. With Roughead as their priority pick (2) they yielded two top 5 picks in the 2004 draft. It's stars that win you premierships and the best chance to draft a star is at the pointy end of the draft. There will always be those that point to Geelong and their lack of top picks, but they've been blessed with amazing Father/Sons. Also, there's no hard and fast formula to win a flag, but in a competition that is far from a level playing field, due to club finances and a skewed draw, I want my club to have the best possible chance to win a flag before I fall off the perch in 40 years. And it’s not going to get any easier with two more teams coming in to the competition and the associated compromised drafts for the next 5 years. As reported on a thread here recently, Matt Rendell was interviewed by Graham Cornes on Adelaide radio about GC17 and stated that the general public won't realise how good the concessions are until 2014 when they are nigh-unbeatable. He followed it up with "I don't know how many people realise what's going to happen", to the groans of Cornes. He said that Champion Data statistics show you that there is a massive difference between first round picks and every other pick in the draft. The Saints are top of the ladder on the back of their first round picks; Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Goddard, Ball, Hayes, and Dal Santo – four of whom were top 2 picks. To top it off, another pick 1 in Gardiner got them over the line against Geelong. So yes, I don't want to win more than 4 games because the system tells me that we're inhibiting the only thing I care about if we do - a flag. Sure, it doesn't make it impossible, but it affects our chances. It makes us less likely to procure a star and I don’t want to reduce the chances of drafting the one thing that can be a huge factor in our short to medium future. The AFL allows a priority pick for a reason. It is well aware that it gives the clubs that need it most the best chance to rise up the ladder and challenge for a flag. And I only care about a flag. I’m not interested in making up the numbers during a Finals campaign like we did in 04, 05, or 06; I want the best chance of ultimate success. We lost to Sydney in round 22, 2003 and on the back of that loss were able to secure McLean. Those that miss the point will say that getting McLean and Sylvia haven’t been the panacea we’d hoped for, but I’m the first to admit that there’s a degree of luck involved with drafts. It could be a Hodge/Judd - Franklin/Roughead draft, or it could be a McLean/Sylvia draft. There’s no question that there’s a degree of luck in football. Luck is reduced significantly though with the best players. Who still hurts about that Sydney loss ? How much did it put the club back that we didn’t win that match, or a couple of others ? It didn’t and some reading this won’t even remember it. The players and Coaches will always try to win on the day, of that I’m certain, but no-one will convince me that it’s in the club’s best interests to win more than 4 matches this year. It simply isn’t. The old ‘culture’ chestnut is a furphy. The best players are usually the best players for a reason. There’s the odd Travis Johnstone, or Des Headland, but more and more the guys who are picked very early are at the top of the pile for a reason. Anyone who has read about Scully knows how driven he is. I’ve much faith in Watts and Grimes as future leaders too. These young men have been dedicated to winning since they were 12. They won’t lose the desire to compete, or have their culture ruined if we win 4 or less, as opposed to 5. And yes, players don’t tank, but the FD may have to make strategic choices. Craig Cameron made a very good point to a few of us years ago (and it matters not if you’re not a fan of his). He said that usually always the quality of the top 6 of a club’s list will determine where that club finishes on the ladder in a given year. Some supporters wax on about a side only being as good as the bottom 6 of the 22 that runs out, but he proved through analysis of each club that it’s your best players that will determine your ladder position and flag chances (subject to vagaries such as injuries). Do the exercise yourself. Do the current top 4 teams on the ladder have the best crop of top 6 players out of all the 16 clubs ? Is there any doubt that the teams positioned at one and two have the two best top 6 lists in the competition ? Hawthorn’s top 6 won them a flag last year – Hodge, Franklin, Roughead, Mitchell, Sewell... Guess what ? The first three of those were top 5 picks. Look at the Saints top 6 in importance- Roo, Kosi, Goddard, Dal Santo, Hayes, Montagna. Other than Montagna they are all first round or top 2 picks. As stated earlier, Geelong is the one aberration through the most amazing list of Father/Sons in history. I’m not certain that all supporters that post on here have a flag as their be all and end all. In fact, I’m certain some don’t. They get enjoyment through their footy club and watching their team play and if a flag is a by-product – great, but if not they’ll still enjoy the journey and the wins that come by the way. This is where I have a major disagreement. If I was certain I’d never see a flag I wouldn’t go to one more game of footy as an emotive participant. It’s only the hope of a flag that keeps me and many others going. Perhaps this explains why I differ on many issues to some and may seem hard on average players. It’s because many of them have little hope of taking us to a flag. That’s not to say that they aren’t valuable while they’re at the club, but a ‘use by’ date is definitely in place. We didn’t turn the list over enough in Daniher’s last years because we thought we were closer to glory than was reality. Some Sydney/South fans told Paul Roos after their flag in 05 that “I can now die happy”. I would feel the same way. If things go to plan we will have had 9 picks in the top 21 over the last 3 years; including possibly three top 2. We’ll be well on the way. And those supporters craving the wins now will be more than compensated for their patience and the ‘lack of culture’ will seem a distant memory. Having said all that, I can’t possibly criticize those supporters that crave a win every week despite the draft consequences - I just don’t agree. This is it though. I can’t go through one more year wanting anything other than a victory.

So you take notice of who's named in the best and use that as your guide to how players have performed when you're not present ? FFS

Round 20 2008 Melb v West Coast crowd = 17,958 Round 14 2009 Melb v West Coast crowd = 23,149 Both Saturday matches. That said, when we go back to round 13, 2005 Melb v West Coast crowd = 35,653 Success brings crowds. Crowds will improve when the teams fortunes do.

I can't recall you finding the need to come on to any of the countless threads to defend him either. Depends on the opinion.

Agreed. And clearly you'll be so illuminating on every needless topic involving Watts.

How about a line breaking star wingman with pace and X factor ? I introduce you to one Mr Morabito.

Why dredge this up now ? There's been countless chances for you to express this opinion. Fwiw, I think the club erred with texting his selection and created more pressure than they ought. Having said that, the games he gets this year will benefit him and the club in the future. Jack Grimes admitted that he wasn't ready in round 22 last year, but the game was of enormous benefit to him over preseason. Was Morton ready in round 1 last year ? Was Bennell ready ? Some supporters didn't feel that Jurrah was ready. Many players aren't 'ready', but you have to taste AFL footy and learn what's required some time. I'll back the club to manage his progress. This will be a non-issue in 4 years time when he's flying. I can't quite understand the timing of this thread.

Recruiters watch players 30 times, or more, over 2-3 years. They speak to their local coaches, family, and even school teachers, so it's impossible for amateurs like me to have any informed opinion about u18 footballers across the country. That said , it's amazing how talent screams out at you when you're watching the best in the flesh. On tv one gets a very closed view of the game, but live you can track a player across the ground, watch how they move, accelerate, anticipate, notice how hard they work, and even just get a much better feel for their athleticism; all stuff that is far more difficult to assess at home. It's like trying to guage the class of a thoroughbred on tv or up close at the markets. Our work insurance agent is Ryan Bastinac's Aunt. Ryan is tipped to go in the top 2 rounds and wears no. 13 for Vic Country. He got quite a bit of the ball, and is obviously a good young physically under developed player. On one viewing I wouldn't have a clue how good he'll be, or whether he'll even make it once he's in the AFL system. I'd need to watch and concentrate on Ryan numerous times at junior level to really appreciate his strengths and weaknesses. The point I'm trying to make is that cream comes to the top and you don't need numerous viewings to know when you see real class. And that's what I saw with Morabito and Trengove. I'd heard about Morabito's disposal issues, so was prepared to doubt him from the outset, but I put those views aside very quickly. He may kick the odd floater under pressure, but he'll just as likely hit his target, plus he'll do things on the ground that will stand him apart from others. His atributes more than compensate for the occasional sprayed kick. His hands were very good and I reckon his disposal is far better than made out by some. He's the prototype for the modern game and has genuine superstar potential. Something this club desperate lacks. But I don't see a boom or bust scenario with him. If he's not a star he'll still be very very good. From my one day of live viewing, Morabito and Trengove stood out as the class trio with Scully. Trengove didn't get a lot of it, but he didn't need to. The class was evident. And that's what I was looking for. I didn't care if he "didn't do enough for me", I was looking for class. He has it. Daniel Rich only made the bench in last year's AA side, because he was somewhat successfully tagged out of matches. You could still see his class though. For anyone that thinks Trengove "didn't do enough" I'd say the same. He'll be a deadset A grade midfielder. I just slightly prefer Morabito's X factor potential. But I can understand those that like Trengove. I have no issue with that whatsoever and would be excited to see him at the Dees next year. Some really like Kane Lucas. I watched him pretty closely. He's one player that I'd need to see more of to be sure he was a top 3 pick. He may well be, but because he's not physically as developed as Trengove or Morabito it's a little harder to say. Like Bastinac, I'd need to watch him 10 - 20 times. This is where Scully is so good. Scully still looks pretty small, but he's just so good. Lucas isn't in Scully's league. One thing I can say with certainty. Scully, Trengove and Morabito would all be in our best team today, let alone next year.

There's not a lot of love on forums for Morabito, but having watched him live I'm firmly in his corner. I even read on this thread where someone compared him to Moloney and Jones. Amazing. People shouldn't comment when they're ill-informed and haven't seen a player live. I've been waxing and waning between Morabito and Trengove, but I'm leaning towards the former. He's perfectly suited to the modern game with his build, class, and running. Trengove is a sure fire 200 gamer, but he is a little bit more of what we've already got - albeit better. Morabito really does have the potential to be a star. The Dees need players that drag people into the ground, and yes, we're compiling those with Watts, Jurrah, and probably Scully, but we've been devoid of match winners for years. Morabito has X factor in spades. Will be far better than given credit for by some and could be anything. Would be wrapped to get Scully/Morabito. Like Trengove also.

It was a completely unnecessary and pathetic post. You're making an ill-informed comment about a dedicated volunteer who's suddenly had a major task lumped on him. Have a bit of gratitude, as opposed to questioning the merits of him filling the breach in difficult and unforeseen circumstances. He was hand-picked and made vice president for a reason. You then said "will this club have any luck again ?", which is different to saying "this club hasn't had any luck". Too subtle a difference for you ?

How would you know ? And what a defeatist post. Pretty pathetic really.

More likely Scully is the one doing the feeding. He has better hands than anyone I can remember at Melbourne.

Loved Morabito. Would be very happy with him at 2.

There is no comparison. Cupido was a lazy 184cm flanker, whilst Morabito is a line breaking 190cm midfielder.

Looked good, but is he a little small - vanilla ? What round would you put him ?

He has every other game. Maybe he slid 10 spots because you thought he didn't do enough on your only viewing ?

I agree wholeheartedly. There's a lot of groupthink that goes on in forums and I can't help think that the "Morabito can't kick" is caught up amongst it. He has class and poise personified, a great body, did some good clearance work at the centre bounces, takes the game on with excellent pace, is an excellent mark, and opitimises 'X factor'. The only query is his finishing skills, but from what I saw, he'll hurt the opposition nearly every time, but kick the odd floater. I also wonder if those that are saying "we don't need another player that can't kick" have even seen him play live ? It's very hard to judge a footballer unless you've seen them in the flesh. Trengove is probably the surer bet, but I can really see Morabito becoming a star. Trengove didn't do a lot, but his class, movement, toughness, skills, are all evident. They are very different footballers, but like you, I can't split them. Christensen looked overweight and slow. Didn't impress me. Very small. No thanks. Rohan did look very good. I'm not always enamoured with the lopey slightly raw type, but he can play. I'd be very happy to draft Butcher, but there's no way he's a top 3 pick. He's a long way off and no guarantee of even making it in the AFL. He might become a Tippett type, but I don't believe you need to use a top 5 pick to get someone of his calibre. All in all, I can see why it's a shallow draft. Not a lot to get excited about, unless you're at the pointy end of the draft - which, of course, we are. Scully plus one of Morabito or Trengove will do me. Smaller crowd than last year at the Dome I thought.

Great timing, seeing as we're discussing the National Championships. Bully for you.

What's your point ? No one says it's the only pathway. But obviously the best of the best are almost certainly in this carnival. Great waste of a post.

Is there a club in the league that doesn't have this as a fundamental in their game plan ? Some do it infinately better than others. Even Adelaide are now adopting this approach as a basic premise.

We were never good enough.

You obviously haven't seen him play.