nutbean

Was party to a process that saw 4 out of the 5 leadership group axed including the captain to occur. B&F from a couple of years ago and the captain dumped from the team Number one draft pick dumped. These arent big enough statements for you ?

I Think Neil Craig said at the beginning of the season about the players (and I am paraphrasing from memory) " there is a new regime of fitness, training and discipline - it may not to be the liking of all the players - some will thrive and some won't"- now, not many have thrived but how far wrong is Craig? Not very.

I am not suggesting that every player gets lynched. I can hold my own thoughts on who is not putting in and who is but at the end of the season it will be the FD who will decide who isnt buying in and who is and take appropriate action.

Sorry but I reject this - you are letting the players off the hook. That they dont get the game plan, too complicated, not skilled enough, unable to follow instructions because of lack of understanding - yup - a reflection on the coach. Players that aren't putting in the effort, intensity or following instructions by choice are a 100% reflection on the players themselves - no one else and these players need to be put under the spotlight. Edit -I added the words by choice to "following instructions by choice" to differentiate between not putting in as the coach asked and not understanding the coaches instructions

I have seen shots on here taken at the coaches and administrators. We can pick holes in what CS has or hasnt done since 186. We can damn Neelds boundary line game plan. But every game plan calls for the same thing - go in hard - first second and third efforts, tackle, chase and harrass. Every gameplan calls for pride in the jumper, pride in the effort and whilst they say the buck stops with coach I reckon thats because you cant sack a whole team. There maybe blame in lots of places but I place the majority of the blame on the players as they are the only who can actually get their hands on the football. If I saw effort like Stkilda and Bulldogs games , you wouldnt see this post as those games had effort. I cant say the same for the last two weeks

Thats the pivotal question. I am unsure that is the case. I can understand confused and I can grit my teeth through poor skills. When I see continually second to the ball and not chasing and not going hard enough at a contest I question the extent of the trying.

I think ( hope ) I am fairly reasoned in my approach. And I try and make my criticism constructive but I will ask a question which I expect rockets on. I pray we put up a good show on Sunday but if we are insipid yet again - passionless and without enthuisiasm - why should supporters not boo the players ? Show support when they put in win or lose. But we vent displeasure on this board. Why is booing poor endeavour frowned on ? note - I havent done it yet in 40 years of support

The one thing I dont do is consign a player to "never play again" however I have no problem with a player being dropped until he does what is required. Everyone deserves redemption. The only time to consign never to play again is at seasons end.

Which is why I will keep banging on that deflecting criticism away from the players is a cop out of the highest order.

It is not the opinion of all. There has been discussions on this board calling for the sacking of the board to various administrators and coaches. Supporters looking for the "root of the problem". I have said that looking past the players is a cop out. I will temper that with the statement that if there are problems outside the playing group they need to be addressed but at the end of the day the players are the only ones who can pull on the jumper and make a difference on the field. I can accept games like StKilda and the Bulldogs where our skills, learning new games plans/structures/ideas and inexperience cost us the game. I cannot accept games like the last two where a small part of above contributed to the losses but the major part is not caring and having a red hot go.

i dont trash the club but that doesnt mean what he is saying is wrong

Agreed and maybe I shouldnt point the finger 100% at the players as there are probably circumstances and events behind the scene. I just think that the players have the power to at least show some care and help stop the rot.I think they are getting off too lightly in this debate

I am sure it is more far reaching than the players but to repeat myself the players are professionally paid athletes and need to stand up. Do we believe that changing boards/admins/coaches etc will see a change in fortunes ? if this is the case then our players are even weaker than i thought

Not saying that at all. Look at the Pies last year - a year of malthouse/buckley goings on. Yet the players still had enough pride in their performance to ignore all the crap. Whilst they say without a united front you cannot reach the ultimate goal, the players are ultimately the guys who chase the footy. CS and MN cant kick the footy for the players.

Looking any further than the players for the major cause of our dilemma is a massive cop out. Looking at different games plans from last century of football, they all have one element in common. To be successful you have to care enough about your club and team-mates to go in hard and play with passion and drive. The only people that can turn this around is the people who can actually put their foot on the leather and thats the players.

I agree with this 100% - I will even go one further and say we dont even have complete insight to the 2 hours on the field either. We see the very obvious acts of leadership - certain acts on the field. But we are not aware of subtle chat and directions that happen on the field - acts of leadership that escape our attention. I have talked to two Collingwood players and I dont see it but they both said Maxwell is sensational by his talk and direction which I have not noticed. They said his acts of courage are obvious but it is the stuff that is not obvious on the field to supporters that they players get which make him a great leader

is it wrong to reject "eye for an eye" retribution in any shape or form in any culture, race or creed. Does the rejection of corporal or capital punishment make one white and elitist ?

Dont disagree...if was to give Col the full benefit of the doubt then I will rephrase and say that is disappointing that he has never been fit enough to be a top 20 AFL footballer. I think it is a bit of cop out from someone 8 seasons in though.

We can call it injuries, no preseasons whatever we like. My opinion is that Col has all the talent necessary in his armoury to be a top 20 footballer in the AFL. He wouldnt be top 200. So to me a disappointment. And to state the opposite I dont think Nathan Jones has the talent to be in top 200 footballers but in my opinion well and truely is in the top 100. So what does that say about the 2 footballers ?

So much is about preception - who wasn't impressed with Jobe Watson on hands and knees throwing up green gatoraid in the middle of the gorund after busting a gut ?

Can i quadruple like a post?

I wasn't poo poo'ing the thread. I was just expressing my concern that it is my belief we have had lots of talent in for many years and i hope and i pray that this regime can educate, teach, cajole, horsewhip- whatever it takes to bring players on because it has been sorely absent for the best part of a decade.Our "talent" seems to progress and then hits a ceiling and the ceiling aint too high. So i can see lots of potential stars but I am sitting on my hands until I am sure this regime(or at least get some indication) has what it takes to help make potential a reality.

Actually not - I was disappointed with Watts comments on losing and put it down to a dumb thing for a 20 year old to say.A footballer has to move on from a defeat to prepare for the next week but I believe that a footballers makeup must contain a healthy dose of a love for winning with also an equal loathing of losing. I'm in two minds regarding displays of emotion after the siren has gone and what it all means. I am of singular mind when I say I want our boys hating to lose a single contest, quarter or game. I am not convinced that all our boys do.

Why would you make a prediction. I have banged on about it being less about who we have recruited and more about our failure to develop.I have friends who dont barrack for the Dees who at different times have seen lots in Bate, Dunne, Petterd etc only to ask me what has gone wrong with them. Look at the Swans and how they manage to develop adequate footballers into week in week out performers and in some footballers - 'stars" Besides the obvious win/loss column improvement, the making of this new regime is whether they can develop the players and take them from obvious talent into consistent performers (and in some cases stars)

Shows us how little we know about what these guys can and cant deliver.I have always thought of Brownless as a buffoon. Yet Stevie J credits him for single handedly making him the player he is today.Hey Billy - wanna take Col Sylvia under your wing ?