sue

Debating whether Watts is top 10 or 20 or x seems pretty irrelevant to me. The only question is does he have a place in the full squad. My view is that based on performance he does despite his faults - look at the roles he played early in the season gaining lots of B&F votes despite his 'pea-heart' etc.. But there may be sufficient off-field issues that as a mere spectator I am unaware of.

yeah, sorry just over-reacting to some of the anti-Watts venom.

Sounds good to me. Though some may be outraged if Watts ends up worth as much as pick 21.

And where in my post is there any implication that I said that? Clearly he has been given a kick uo the posterior whatever he does. Perhaps you see the poster's name and then read the post to conform to your script.

One thing I am sure of is that those who are keen to remove Watts will always be prooved right. If Watts performs well at another club it will be because he needed this gigantic kick up the posterior which would never had happened with us. If he is no good, it will also be proof they were right. But imagine this forum if Watts stayed. The detailed criticism he'd be subjected to every week would make these 204 pages look like a mere blip.

Ah, so the fact that Martin was 21 when he matured leaves hope for an immature Watts at 26 then....

I agree. Just reacting to those who undersell Watts.

Yes, we need more blokes who can bulldoze their way through a pack and then kick it straight to an opponent. Then they can fiercely contest another ball-up in the centre circle.

But you asked Ron ' you know this how'? when he did NOT say he knew it. I don't disagree with your asertion that some opinion leads to things being accepted as fact. Said so myself, though I think the appropriate word is speculation since opinion is never evidence. But I hestitated to attack your vocab.

Ron didn't say he had evidence, he said "naive if you don't THINK". He's just speculating as to what he thinks is very likely, not saying he heard it from a mate of a mate's mother-in-law. Not his fault if others misinterpret that and it then becomes accepted 'fact'. There have been several examples of that on both sides of this debate.

I hope (but doubt) this will be my final word on the subject. I suggest that there is no single reason that Watts is being moved on. He is not as bad a player, trainer, influence as some have painted him. But even those who support him have acknowledged he has deficiencies, is no star but still a valuable player. Since there may also be issues relating to team structure getting Lever in, salary cap issues, etc., taking it all into account it is reasonable that the FD have made the decision whetehr or not they have handled it well. (I don't think we have to assume some yet to be revealed bad behaviour to add to that list but who knows). I To those who say the FD knows more than we do, well duh, of course they do. Doesn't mean we can't question their decisions and their implementation in this forum or what's the point of the forum. I trust those in the extreme axe-Watts camp who have arrogantly put down those criticising the FD's actions on the grounds the FD know more than us will never question any future decisions of the FD including the next week's team selection and positional moves during a game.

Watts gets caned even when he does well because all of a sudden he has no choice!? WHile you make some good ppints, there is a way to avoid competing in the ruck - do such a bad job of it that the coach moves you elsewhere or off.

I think the point was that one swallow doth not a spring make. Your sample size is tiny (and probably subjective).

Of those who remain there are several in the squad who would attract less interest than Watts from other clubs if they were offered up for trade. So we are just quibbling over how most most is.

For those of us who see value in Watts, especially given the pre-injury performance where he filled in in the ruck etc, despite his poor attitude and slack training or whatever, the main arguement that I can see for getting rid of him is the putative bad infuence on other players, especially the younger ones. But dejammin's post has prompted a question. Given the leadership of our young hard trainers, is one 'rotten apple' really going to have any effect on the others. Can't we ascribe some maturity to even the youngest players (one C Oliver comes to mind) that they will work their guts off however slack Watts is. Time to don my crash helmet for this heresy....

better than a lot of other MFC players.

or perhaps bored with sports cliches

come on, the point is simply that a pick is a pick in a poke. There may be reasons for dumping Watts, but relying on a pick as compensation is a risky one.

Dunno about us, but it seems it is an issue at one or two of the other clubs looking at Watts

Perhaps he should stay as kicking coach. Could sure use one.

I don't rate Jon Ralph's article. But I think the question in the headline is a good one. Obviously I'm not in the camp that replies 'yes'.

This is why I keep harping on about failed messiah issues. How many players does any club have, particuarly a mediocre one like ours (cum basket case) that dominate games? The number is countable on the fingers of a mutilated hand. You don't sack the other players in the squad. If Watts was just accepted as a mediocre player who can play lots of roles we wouldn't be having this debate. We may still support the FD in thinking his best value is a trade or in our usual know-all wisdom say they are wrong, or at least worry that they are wrong (ie. me), but the debate would not be this bitter and at times ludicrous on both sides. Obviously you are not in the FD of the Cats, Swans, Port..... But of course staying wth the Demons (as distinct from being recruited by another club) is now close to impossible.

Several posters have said that the FD had Watts' card marked from early in the year. If so, why would they have given him such good numbers in the Bluey in the first half of the year? Surely they'd mark him down even if objectively he might have deserved the numbers.

Sounds like the Club handled this as badly internally as externally.

As an amateur Handel in this Messiah trotting, I don't think is has been suggested that anyone still thinks he is the messiah. The argument is that the bitter over-reaction to him being a mediocre player is partly due to the disappointment starting 9 years ago, which probably ran for 3 or 4 years. I agree those early expectation are irrelevent to a rational mind not suffering from the failed messiah complex. It now seems pretty clear he did something to [censored] off the FD after seemingly atoning for his pre-season slackness. After all he was marked high in the first 14 rounds by the coaches. Why would they do that if they didn't want to reward half-hearted behaviours? Is there any evidence that the FD wanted him out until later? I haven't seen it. I was at a match a while back where this guy behind me abused Watts every time he went near the ball and was so busy abusing him he didn't even notice Watts setting up a couple of goals from a difficult situation. I think he was pretty typical of 'supporters' who suffered from the failed messiah complex. Now that Watts has [censored] off the FD, they think they can justify their earlier abuse.